Trident a range pre

[tanov]

I am using the preamp circuit only with Sowter transformer (replacement part for original unit), comparing it to my Yamaha N-12 mixer. You think my BCs can sound different from the original?
My Yamaha has very good preamps - discrete. Maybe this is the reason.

My point was that the trident DIY preamp (preamp only) with transformer costs 100x the yamaha preamp and they sound the same

 

[dmp]

I don't think they sound the same. I've been listening to various preamps quite a bit lately and found that differences are pretty subtle. I haven't done anything with drums yet, but I've found that it is easier to hear differences with aggressive vocals. I've listened to acoustic guitar quite a bit and found the differences harder to hear, but still noticeable.

 

[Biasrocks]

My Yamaha has very good preamps - discrete. Maybe this is the reason.

My point was that the trident DIY preamp (preamp only) with transformer costs 100x the yamaha preamp and they sound the same

I can hear a clear difference between these two samples.

Subtle is not a word I would use to describe the differences between the two. 8)

Mark

 

[dmp]

Subtle is not a word I would use to describe the differences between the two.

I started making / listening to preamps after making / listening to guitar amps... which are two different worlds. Once I started listening for the right things, it became less subtle. But if you have not done this much, I think the two will sound a lot alike.
I thought 'A' was richer and fuller, which is what I expect in a nice preamp. But I have not done any work with drums so I would still reserve judgment...

 

[tanov]

Your posts encourage me I can hear a small difference in kick drum - trident has more low freq, probably because of the input capacitors. But this is the only think I can hear. It is interesting how the sowter does not affect the sound - probably a very good transformer. Someone said that there is a huge diff - please describe what you hear.

 

[Biasrocks]

I didn't say huge, I said I wouldn't use subtle to describe the differences.

There's a certain fatness, presence and solidness which I identify with transformer based, discrete
mic pre's on one of the samples which isn't present on the other, in fact the other sounds a little
less solid and peaky to me in comparison. These differences are exaggerated as you stack tracks together
in a mix.

Mark

 

[kpearsall]

Just noticed this thread. Been planning my own build for a while. Trying to get my hands on the schems. I would definately be down for building two ASAP. after that I'm sure I'd be ordering more. I'd like to gut my Altec console and replace them with these and maybe a few Neve 1290's. But I'm a fiend for all things Trident, so that wins out! please keep the info coming, especially when we can order the boards!

DMP, good to see another madisonian

 

[abechap024]

Looks and sounds really cool! I also agree with Mark on this one. The Trident clones sound much more solid and strong. Don't get discouraged, cause its been in my limited experience that sometimes comparing preamp side by side the differences can be quite subtle, but then compare a whole song recorded with preamp A vs. a whole song recorded with preamp B and its stupidly obvious which preamp is superior. And judging from your samples that would be the trident!
Nice High voltage rail! yummy

 

[tanov]

http://mixperience.net/samples/shootouts/trident_a_range_vs_n12/info.txt
Here is the info for A/B.

It is interesting how my first try of trident prototype sounded really huge. It was without stabilized power, without transformer and connected to line input instead of direct ADC inser:
http://mixperience.net/samples/shootouts/trident_a_range_vs_n12/a.wav
http://mixperience.net/samples/shootouts/trident_a_range_vs_n12/b.wav

Then I added transformer and connected it to ADC insert. Power is still not stabilized, so trident is noisier. Because I put protection diodes in the output it sounds really huge - they limit the peaks:
http://mixperience.net/samples/shootouts/trident_a_range_vs_n12/a2.wav
http://mixperience.net/samples/shootouts/trident_a_range_vs_n12/b2.wav

And as perfect is the circuit as close is to the yamaha - no fat. (a4 and b4 files) -
Stabilized, no diodes.

Btw I started working on this project after buying comparison cd from 3daudio inc. I found that this pre sounds best on drums. After my final test (not huge a4 and b4) I reviewed the 3daudio files again and guess what trident sounds best and punchy in their recording, because overheads and snare are distorted that is a shame.

 

[QUEEF BAG]

another factor in the subtleties may be
going into the insert return on what board?
and going thru how much more of that electronics?

put a nice big girl like that into a tight corsett and
she's gonna look skinnier.

 

[tanov]

Insert jack is just after the mic pre - signal goes directly to the AD converter input. In case of line in, it goes through the n-12 line preamp.

 

[Biasrocks]

What?? Now I'm confused. I'm seriously questioning if you can build this thing at all.

Why don't you build the pre-amp the way is supposed to be with a proper power supply, no limiting diodes
and an input transformer and get back to us.

Mark

 

[tanov]

The power supply and transformer are the same. Limiting diodes were at the output to protect my n-12 ADC. The circuit is powered by 30V. I do not want to burn my mixer on failure.

 

[dmp]

tanov,
I'd suggest you take a little time to work on preamp comparisons - both listening and signal routing. It sounds like there might be issues in your tests. Perhaps starting with a established project?
I have listened to an original Trident A range console at a studio and it sounds amazing. The people using them know the difference in sound between a great preamp and a yamaha board from Guitar Center. I wouldn't worry that any of us will finish a Trident Preamp and regret it.

kpearsall, welcome to the forum!

 

[tanov]

Maybe the diff will appear with phantom powered condenser mic. I do not have an acoustic guitar to test. It is a good instrument for preamps comparison.

 

[abechap024]

Also from what I gather you haven't been using an output transformer. Get rid of those diodes and get an output transformer. Also +30v isn't going to blow out a +/- 15v input, assuming your Yamaha has at least that much.

AC

 

[tanov]

A4/b4 are without the diodes. The max mixer input is +14dBu. The nominal is 0dBu. The original design does not have output transformer. I think I will add trim pot at the output to regulate the output. In this case you can overdrive the amp, but reduce the output level. BTW the a2/b2 with diode distortion sound fatter (maybe with little less OD).

 

[mitsos]

Is anyone sharing schematics of this?

 

[QUEEF BAG]

isn't that what the output coupling cap is for?

it should block any DC from the pre getting to the output,
if i'm thinking straight, or even if i'm thinking and i'm not straight.

and to hear the sound of the pre amp....
aw...where to start...
1  don't run it into your channel insert.
    a)  it lowers the chain to a much lower standard.
        and the weakest link in the chain often sets the ceiling
        for audio quality
    b)  you wanna hear just the mic pre - take it straight to your recording device.
        if you want to stick something in your inserts, take the outputs of your
        DACs and jam those into the inserts to shorten the signal path when monitoring.
        be fair and do that for both the A-range pre and the yamaka pre, or what ever.
        ...or all the time.  (i do that when i mix on an ssl 4000 series, which i try not to do.)
    c)  you should have a balanced output that can drive a variety of loads
        (like if you were gonna plug into a compressor or EQ with a transformer input
          or maybe straight into the inputs instead)
          the output section will also establish part of the unit sound,
          which means your only half done. 

2  monitoring chain - from converters to console, to amps, to speakers, to room acoustic, to...
    again yer weakest link, and there could be several.  i am admittedly a bit of a gear snob,
    not that things have to be elite or expensive, but they do have to be very good. or better.

3  your monitoring environment makes a huge difference to your ability to perceive.  and hear.


ok for now just think about 1 c
   

 

[tanov]

The problem is not in DC. The point is that if you have 3V accidentaly at the input and the circuit amplifies it 10x, you will have 30V AC at the output. With high rail supply you can output high level not-distorted amplitude. If the power was 12V it will not be a problem - the ADC protection will cope with this. Regarding the signal path it is the cleanest possible. The n12 mixer is my audio interface. The insert jack is the shortest path, connected directly to the ADC. The output is balanced and connected to my Genelec active monitors. But I have 3  different control rooms, so I can monitoe the recording. Even with cheap laptop and phones you can hear the diff between great river and mackie mixer preamp on guitars. The problem here is that trident is simple discrete preamp similar to the discrete preamp in my mixer (very hq preamp). Maybe comparing it to op-amp preamp will give more diff.