U47-style bodies - who can make one?

[bradb]

Ah, the day is soon upon us!

 

[matta]

Good news lads & lasses...

(any lasses here?)


Anyway, I'm ordering mic body prototypes this week.
In a couple of weeks, I'll have something to show!

Three cheers and a virtual keg for Skylar!

Thanks for all the hard work man, we ALL appreciate it.

Matt

 

[FerrariT]

and so the anticipation for the line up thread begins!

 

[Skylar]

Here's an interesting aside:


I've been trying to get wire mesh quotes from various suppliers.

One of those is Cleveland Wire Cloth, based out of—you guessed it—Cleveland, OH.

The gentleman I spoke with there had a few questions about the design and what exactly I wanted quoted; he seemed nice and straight-forward.

This morning he sent an email saying:

We have an issue.  We already make this part.  The tooling is here and we probably should not be quoting against ourselves.  We will gladly quote you on the mesh, and I have sent samples.  However, we do produce this for another customer and I think there is an ethical issue in quoting you further.

I replied, telling him I wouldn't mind buying a new set of tooling, to which he responded:

We have been debating this since you sent the drawings.  We do not feel comfortable making the parts for you.

Sorry,

Wow.

So, who are they making parts for?
Who is making headbaskets that match my design exactly (which matches the original U47)?
CAD is based out of Ohio, but they don't have a product with this exact headbasket.

If you look at other U47 clone headbaskets, most don't quite match the original—
FLEA, Wunder, Wagner, and TelefunkenUSA headbaskets are too hemishperical on top.
The wire gauge on some of these clones is too thin as well.
TelefunkenUSA says their clones are made in the US.
Wunder is based out of Austin, TX—their bodies may or may not be made in US (probably provided by FLEA through).

Honestly, to me all of the clones look like they are made by FLEA in Slovakia.



So, again, for whom could Cleveland Wire Cloth be making U47 mesh?
Telefunken maybe?

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, but I thought this whole exchange was interesting.

 

[mitsos]

Considering it's neither ours or their other client's original design (everyone took measurements off the same old Neumann mics) there are no ethical issues in my eye.  CAD is worried that the other client (who probably buys bunches of these from them)  might get pissed and take their business elsewhere, and he doesn't want to risk it for 100 pieces.  But, that's fine, the fact that this came up has a good side.. it means that the measurements are pretty spot on. just my 2 cents.

 

[bradb]

agreed that its a good verification...


you could just tell them its for a shower head...

 

[Skylar]

you could just tell them its for a shower head...

hahaha

Too late now, but a great idea!


My opinion is, if they will not provide the mesh, someone else will.
They just lost a business opportunity.

 

[FerrariT]

True indeed.
I think it is very foolish on their part.

Furthermore I would of pushed the issue a bit, with some added aggression, if only to get the guy to see "our" point crystal clear like.

I do not see his point in the least bit.

Considering these are not for mass production, it's not like we all here plan to make a ton of mics and sell them.

I feel like those responses were bullshit, to be frank!

 

[Skylar]

My first instinct was to push the issue, but I decided to just move on.

There are PLENTY of other wire mesh fabricators.

Hey, at least they're sending me samples! I win.

 

[MikoKensington]

He's just covering his ass.  Remember the whole Profile 2503/4804 debacle?  What a mess.

I doubt it's infringing on any patents or trademarks.  Is he aware that the basic design is over 50 years old and the original manufacturer isn't threatening those currently remaking it?  Ah well.  You should ask him if he has the numbers of his competitors.

Either way, this project is very exciting.  Your efforts are most impressive Skylar.  I found this thread a little late (18 pages had already been established), but if you need any more measurements or pictures of a real 47 I can help.  I've got one here.  

 

[bradb]

No, he is operating ethically.  He's building a widget for a client, and refuses to build the identical widget for a potential competitor of his client's.  He's good, and we get a good verification.  It would be good to see if we can pick his brain a bit to see if we can improve.  Maybe if he knows we're DIY'ers...

by the book, even though we're only getting 100 we are still a competitor to these manufactures... if we didn't build these, potentially, some of us would the real thing.

please, no need to reply with virile defenses of your DIY devotion!  I'm just trying to give some perspective.

 

[plumsolly]

I'm sure it will work out regardless, but maybe if he knew that were looking for a part with these dimensions exactly - and would be glad to buy them if they were available ready-made at a reasonable price (but are not), he would be more willing. I would be curious to see how close the part he already manufactures is. Maybe it is identical, but it seems more likely that it is just too close for comfort. I think the fact that he is honest and forthright makes him a good candidate for someone to work with. Just my thoughts - I'm sure it will work out great and thanks so much for all the work you've put in. - Ben

 

[MATTI]

As the capsules do differ, I wouldn´t personally mind a darker grill in the 5k area - but for that capsule in mind.
Confirm my interest for one of these if the price settles down to my -unemployed for now- budget.

Matti

 

[aamicrophones]

Hi Guys, we use a short body on our 47 so that the top horizontal grill bar crosses the capsule like the original U47.  This diffuses the sibilant frequencies a bit like the original U47. 

We also are very critical that the polarization voltage matches that of the U47.

However, we use an optimized 6072 circuit with a CF output which is superior in our experience 40 years of experience working with tube circuits than the original U47 circuit.  It drives the BV8 very nicely.

The problem is that you can never make it sound like an original U47 because they all sound different from each other.  Even when they were brand new they were only with + and - 4db of each other.  The older the PVC M7 capsule the less low end it has in its response.  The original audio capacitors in the U47 were horrible electrolytics and the ones in our 1953 Tele 47 turned to dust.

The VF14 tube was usually microphonic adding some extra harmonics to the midrange on close vocals which cannot be duplicated.

The Peluso PK47 is very close to the K47 mylar capsules used in the U47 microphones made after 1958.

The mylar capsules tend to have a bit more low end than the PVC capsules.

Cheers, Dave Thomas
www.aamicrophones.com

 

[Martin B. Kantola]

However, we use an optimized 6072 circuit with a CF output which is superior in our experience 40 years of experience working with tube circuits than the original U47 circuit. It drives the BV8 very nicely.

Interesting post, hope you don't mind some questions and comments. You are using a CF with a BV8? Sorry, but I don't understand how that could even work, where do you get any gain? EDIT: Or are you using both triodes?

The problem is that you can never make it sound like an original U47 because they all sound different from each other.   Even when they were brand new they were only with + and - 4db of each other.

In overall gain or frequency response deviation? Although the U47s we hear today can vary quite a bit, I still hear a clearly recognizable sound in any properly working one. And with the same capsule and tube they can be very close.

The original audio capacitors in the U47 were horrible electrolytics and the ones in our 1953 Tele 47 turned to dust..

Never seen one of these fail actually, and they don't sound that bad at all to me. Surprisingly perhaps.

The VF14 tube was usually microphonic adding some extra harmonics to the midrange on close vocals which cannot be duplicated.

Generally speaking I don't find the VF14 to be microphonic, and considering how it's mounted I find this theory hard to believe.

The Peluso PK47 is very close to the K47 mylar capsules used in the U47 microphones made after 1958.

The Peluso capsules I've heard sounded nothing like anything Neumann ever made. Just listen to the off axis responses.

The mylar capsules tend to have a bit more low end than the PVC capsules.

I've compared new PVC and mylar M7s and didn't notice this, but the Gefells are another story. Which ones are you talking about?

Martin

 

[Marik]

Hey Martin,

May I take a liberty and suggest you to spare your precious time to make all your valid points. You could spend it for something much more usefull rather than deal with all that rubbish. It is enough to glance over this thread, just to get an idea:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/26315/1759/

Best, M 

 

[Martin B. Kantola]

Oh...  :-[ lots of fun reading though, thanks for the link Marik 

Martin

 

[Skylar]

We've touched on this before in this thread (and other threads); I'm going to go ahead and say it again.


We're not making a U47.

We're making a mic that is U47-ish.

An exact U47 repro is not a DIY-friendly project $$$


With Max's brilliant circuit and a (hopefully) faithful headbasket, we're attempting to capture some of the flavor.

But no one expects a real U47.



By the way, mic body prototypes have been ordered.
Should be a 15 day lead time, though it could be a bit longer.

 

[FerrariT]

No, he is operating ethically.  He's building a widget for a client, and refuses to build the identical widget for a potential competitor of his client's.  He's good, and we get a good verification.  It would be good to see if we can pick his brain a bit to see if we can improve.  Maybe if he knows we're DIY'ers...

by the book, even though we're only getting 100 we are still a competitor to these manufactures... if we didn't build these, potentially, some of us would the real thing.

please, no need to reply with virile defenses of your DIY devotion!  I'm just trying to give some perspective.

no, you are right brad.
I guess I just looked at it from our perspective as I do not believe anyone here plans on selling what they build for profit.
although I've been wrong before, lol

 

[FerrariT]

We're not making a U47.

With Max's brilliant circuit and a (hopefully) faithful headbasket, we're attempting to capture some of the flavor.

But no one expects a real U47.

By the way, mic body prototypes have been ordered.
Should be a 15 day lead time, though it could be a bit longer.

No but I expect something "great"

What is the projected lead time when we pull the trigger on the final design?

thanks.