We really need to start having a serious conversation about this....

[user 37518]

A few things are getting confused here. Attempts to lower unsustainable birth rates in the developing world are getting equated with "killing". "Elites" attempting to "kill" people are fever dreams.

If you look at the actual harm done Rupert Murdoch has a lot more to answer for than George Soros.

And the reason why people in the developed world (and progressively with increasing affluence in the developed world) are getting less and less children is prosperity and the responsibility shared by a societey of caring for the old via the social contract.

Similar mechanisms played themselves out in ancient Greece already. People got prosperous and would rather continue to have a lot of leisure time than get burdened with child care.

Killing is exactly what it is. That prosperity that you mention, won't last for long if there are no people left to enjoy it. Well, there will be some left to enjoy it, those who want you to eat the bugs while they eat caviar and foie gras, those who want you to walk to work, while they fly in private jet planes to Davos just to hire prostitutes and enjoy the highlife, whilst fools clap and clap for all the good they are doing to save humanity and, most importantly, the world..

 

[crazydoc]

With better education, technology, and societal progress, people could figure out where babies came from and how to prevent them, and not needing to hope some of their many offspring would survive to care for them in old age, could improve their lives.

In days of old when knights were bold and rubbers weren't invented
Men tied socks around their cocks and babies were prevented

 

[soliloqueen]

Killing is exactly what it is. That prosperity that you mention, won't last for long if there are no people left to enjoy it. Well, there will be some left to enjoy it, those who want you to eat the bugs while they eat caviar and foie gras, those who want you to walk to work, while they fly in private jet planes to Davos just to hire prostitutes and enjoy the highlife, whilst fools clap and clap for all the good they are doing to save humanity and, most importantly, the world..

as a member of one of the few groups where forced sterilization is still normal and accepted in present day, i would like to know how, precisely, you think people choosing to have fewer children is equivalent to what happens to people like me

 

[user 37518]

With better education, technology, and societal progress, people could figure out where babies came from and how to prevent them, and not needing to hope some of their many offspring would survive to care for them in old age, could improve their lives.

In days of old when knights were bold and rubbers weren't invented
Men tied socks around their cocks and babies were prevented

Do you really think that what we have now is societal progress?

 

[crazydoc]

Do you really think that what we have now is societal progress?

In the historical scheme of things, fuck yes.

 

[user 37518]

as a member of one of the few groups where forced sterilization is still normal and accepted in present day, i would like to know how, precisely, you think people choosing to have fewer children is equivalent to what happens to people like me

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[user 37518]

In the historical scheme of things, fuck yes.

In what sense? and, compared to what?

 

[soliloqueen]

What in the world are you talking about?

you're claiming that the normalization of abortion and birth control are due to people are conspiring to lower birth rates for nefarious reasons--that is to say, reproductive genocide. as someone who is part of a group that is actually subject to ongoing reproductive genocide, how so? how are they similar?

 

[user 37518]

you're claiming that the normalization of abortion and birth control are due to people are conspiring to lower birth rates for nefarious reasons--that is to say, reproductive genocide. as someone who is part of a group that is actually subject to ongoing reproductive genocide, how so? how are they similar?

What group are you part of and how are you being subject to reproductive genocide? Can you be less vague?

 

[boji]

"Elites" attempting to "kill" people are fever dreams.

Wars, special ops, by any other name. This is about the capacity for evil and where one focuses their lens, as it were, to build up a worldview. Systemic evils are fueled by old social systems. Evil propagates into societies via individuals who reject old social systems. Both are true. All can agree the worst of what goes on behind closed doors isn't reported on or televised.

 

[soliloqueen]

What group are you part of and how are you being subject to reproductive genocide? Can you be less vague?

I was born intersex and we are actually, regularly, surgically mutilated and sterilized at birth or soon after, or even as adults without consent in secret during other procedures, only finding out years later. thousands of us a year, without adequate medical proof that it's necessary. this has been pretty common since the early to mid 1900s, and even in recent bills that claim (my opinion on this notwithstanding) to be "protecting children from undergoing surgeries," mutilating our bodies has been added as an exception to the protections in every single one of these proposed bills in every country that has proposed them. And that's just in many first world countries, where there are strong protections to stop infanticide from happening. In places where there aren't, it does. I want to know, genuinely, how people simply being given the choice to have fewer children equates at all. What, precisely, gives you the basis to call it killing?

 

[crazydoc]

In what sense? and, compared to what?

Compared to cavemen.

 

[user 37518]

I was born intersex and we are actually, regularly, surgically mutilated at birth or soon after, or even as adults without consent in secret during other procedures, only finding out years later. thousands of us a year, without adequate medical proof that it's necessary. this has been pretty common since the early to mid 1900s, and even in recent bills that claim (my opinion on this notwithstanding) to be "protecting children from undergoing surgeries," mutilating our bodies has been added as an exception to the protections in every single one of these proposed bills in every country that has proposed them. And that's just in many first world countries, where there are strong protections to stop infanticide from happening. In places where there aren't, it does. I want to know, genuinely, how people simply being given the choice to have fewer children equates at all. What, precisely, gives you the right to call it killing?

I am sorry for what happened to you. But what you are saying is that because you were born with a genetic anomaly that affects around 0.018% of the population (How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling - PubMed) and something bad was done to you, then, what I said can't be true. By the way, what you have is completely unrelated to the point I was making. You are trying to create a straw man with something completely unrelated by adding intersex to the argument.

 

[user 37518]

Compared to cavemen.

Come on, do you want to have a conversation or not?

 

[soliloqueen]

I am sorry for what happened to you. But what you are saying is that because you were born with a genetic anomaly that affects around 0.0018% of the population (How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling - PubMed) and something bad was done to you, then, what I said can't be true. By the way, what you have is completely unrelated to the point I was making. You are trying to create a straw man with something completely unrelated by adding intersex to the argument.

Not the point I was making. If you have a CHOICE, if you are given the ability to CHOOSE, it is NOT the same. Killing in the sense used here implies lack of choice, definitionally. Inherently. Because people have the CHOICE to accept or not accept birth control, it is not the same. I'm not saying that means it isn't bad, but it is not killing. Words have meanings.

 

[user 37518]

Not the point I was making. If you have a CHOICE, if you are given the ability to CHOOSE, it is NOT the same. Killing in the sense used here implies lack of choice, definitionally. Inherently. Because people have the CHOICE to accept or not accept birth control, it is not the same. I'm not saying that means it isn't bad, but it is not killing.

Question, do the majority of intersex people are capable of giving birth to children?

 

[Matador]

I want to know, genuinely, how people simply being given the choice to have fewer children equates at all. What, precisely, gives you the right to call it killing?

They don't equate, because of course they don't. Somehow the availability of birth control appears to equate to a plot by "elites to kill us".

and even in recent bills that claim (my opinion on this notwithstanding) to be "protecting children from undergoing surgeries," mutilating our bodies has been added as an exception to the protections in every single one of these proposed bills in every country that has proposed them.

I also find it interesting that circumcision is notably absent from these bills as well.

 

[soliloqueen]

Question, do the majority of intersex people are capable of giving birth to children?

Generally, yes, it would have been at least possible. Through traditional (usually) or sometimes non-traditional means. Not true after "intervention." Some interventions increase fertility, but those can often be taken with consent later in life.

I also find it interesting that circumcision is notably absent from these bills as well.

forced circumcision is a real and serious problem. men will always find allies in intersex people about this specific topic.

 

[user 37518]

Generally, yes, it would have been at least possible. Through traditional (usually) or sometimes non-traditional means. Not true after "intervention." Some interventions increase fertility, but those can often be taken with consent later in life.

It is possible, but, in general, no, unless, as you mention, external means are used. What you are doing is taking a completely different issue, which is an anomaly, and try to equate it to all mankind. Again, you are creating a straw man, and trying to use guilt to win the argument. Intersex was never mentioned and somehow you slipped it in to try to disprove abortion and contraception. It doesn't make sense. So, ok, to answer you, what I was saying doesn't comparte to your problem, because what you are talking about is a completely different problem.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Thank you, yes, that was exactly my point.

Thank you both. This is much more easily digestible.