We really need to start having a serious conversation about this....

[user 37518]

Thank you both. This is much more easily digestible.

Anything you want to contribute?

 

[soliloqueen]

It is possible, but, in general, no, unless, as you mention, external means are used. What you are doing is taking a completely different issue, which is an anomaly, and try to equate it to all mankind. Again, you are creating a straw man, and trying to use guilt to win the argument.

No, intersex people can more often than not have children. You are working on a lot of mistaken assumptions about the facts that are difficult to tackle because they can't be retrieved through quick research. What is or is not defined as intersex is a pretty big topic of academic debate right now. By the methods described in the link you gave (which are unsupported and controversial) basically only infertile people are counted as intersex in the first place, which of course would result in statistics that say that a high percentage of intersex people are infertile. In reality, most of the people who undergo genital mutilation have conditions that are explicitly excluded from the definition of intersex presented in the link you gave, so it's difficult to directly engage with your points.

The point is, the word "killing" has a specific meaning. You can't equate people taking the offer to have less kids with measures that activity and unwillingly destroy their ability to reproduce. That's hyperbolic.

 

[user 37518]

No, intersex people can more often than not have children. You are working on a lot of mistaken assumptions about the facts that are difficult to tackle because they can't be retrieved through quick research. What is or is not defined as intersex is a pretty big topic of academic debate right now. By the methods described in the link you gave (which are unsupported and controversial) basically only infertile people are counted as intersex in the first place, which of course would result in statistics that say that a high percentage of intersex people are infertile. In reality, most of the people who undergo genital mutilation have conditions that are explicitly excluded from the definition of intersex presented in the link you gave, so it's difficult to directly engage with your points.

I don't want to talk about intersex, that is a whole different issue, and, even if all intersex people were capable of having children, they represent a minuscule proportion of the population so it doesn't really contribute to the world birth rate, which is what is being discussed. You are making a straw man and leading the conversation to your personal issue. You are taking abortion and contraception to genital mutilation and circumcision, a straw man, just stop.

 

[soliloqueen]

I don't want to talk about intersex, that is a whole different issue, and, even if all intersex people were capable of having children, they represent a minuscule proportion of the population so it doesn't really contribute to the world birth rate, which is what is being discussed. You are making a straw man and leading the conversation to your personal issue. You are taking abortion and contraception to genital mutilation and circumcision, a straw man, just stop.

you don't seem to be able to understand the point i am making if you think the specific examples i'm giving are related to making my point rather than just demonstrating it. the point is that it is not killing. even if it is happening, and even if it is bad, that does not make it killing, because killing is very specific. killing by definition means active and unwilling intervention, which it is not.

 

[crazydoc]

Come on, do you want to have a conversation or not?

I guess not. We have different world views, and mine has been influenced by living in several different cultures, and I'm stuck there and unable to change.

 

[user 37518]

you don't seem to be able to understand the point i am making if you think the specific examples i'm giving are relevant to my point. the point is that it is not killing. even if it is happening, and even if it is bad, that does not make it killing, because killing is very specific.

If your example is irrelevant, then it is pointless for the conversation. If the topic were euthanasia and I suddenly start talking about war deaths in Afghanistan, it is a pointless example

 

[user 37518]

I guess not. We have different world views, and mine has been influenced by living in several different cultures, and I'm stuck there and unable to change.

Ok, so you are just trolling.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Anything you want to contribute?

As I’m reading through since yesterday, so far no. It seems living sounds has already covered more than my thoughts very well.

 

[soliloqueen]

You are taking abortion and contraception to genital mutilation and circumcision, a straw man, just stop.

You are the one doing that. When you called it "killing" you, by definition, compared it to every other action that actually involves unwilling intervention. Your language made the comparison, I simply carried it through to its conclusion.

 

[user 37518]

killing by definition means active and unwilling intervention, which it is not.

That is exactly what is happening, but, I don't want to start with the whole argument about whether you consider someone to be alive or not. I repeat, I won't go there, I won't go there.

 

[user 37518]

You are the one doing that. When you called it "killing" you, by definition, compared it to every other action that actually involves unwilling intervention. Your language made the comparison, I simply carried it through to its conclusion.

So the conclusion is intersex genital mutilation. Right.

 

[soliloqueen]

So the conclusion is intersex genital mutilation. Right.

No, the conclusion is that both are killing, and I asked precisely how. Let's put abortion to the side for a minute, because that's not really what I have most issue with in your statement. How is distributing birth control killing?

 

[user 37518]

No, the conclusion is that both are killing, and I asked precisely how. Let's put abortion to the side for a minute, because that's not really what I have most issue with in your statement. How is distributing birth control killing?

No, lets not put abortion aside for a minute. That is the whole issue, don't take away what you can't refute to try to make it easier for you.

 

[crazydoc]

"Ok, so you are just trolling."

No, I was just expressing my opinion on some factors that have contributed to lower birth rates. There's no question that social progress has been made throughout history, but somehow you want to jump on this and argue about it. That's absurd.

 

[user 37518]

No, I was just expressing my opinion on some factors that have contributed to lower birth rates. There's no question that social progress has been made throughout history, but somehow you want to jump on this and argue about it. That's absurd.

Hey, no one forced you to join in the conversation, if you start saying stuff then expect responses. That is how it works.

 

[soliloqueen]

No, lets not put abortion aside for a minute. That is the whole issue, don't take away what you can't refute to try to make it easier for you.

Abortion was never central to this conversation to me. You made that assumption. You talked about birth control. and included it in "killing." Why?

 

[user 37518]

I have to go to work, I'll get back later

 

[user 37518]

Abortion was never central to this conversation to me. You made that assumption. You talked about birth control. and included it in "killing." Why?

No, I talked about birth control AND abortion, re-read.

 

[soliloqueen]

No, I talked about birth control AND abortion, re-read.

Let me speak more broadly, to try and make my point better. HOW is consensual decrease of the rate of population growth in any way "killing" or even necessarily harming? or were you talking only about the physical act of abortion? i'm sorry for laying it on heavy, i just get kind of bothered when people talk about vague things when there are all sorts of real, government and society-sanctioned atrocities happening all the time that nobody talks about because they're not part of the election cycle. people regularly turn suffering into casual political discussion in places like this in really uncomfortable ways, especially when they are not actually the people being materially affected by these kinds of policies.

 

[crazydoc]

Hey, no one forced you to join in the conversation, if you start saying stuff then expect responses. That is how it works.

And some responses are not worth continuing a conversation.