Brewery politics

[JohnRoberts]

Political discussion has increased in the Brewery, primarily because Trump is such a divisive figure.


DaveP

I perceived an uptick in partisan political arguments in the brewery long before Trump was on anybody's radar.

It is mostly one or two individuals keeping the discussions going on one side and a few from the other who respond.

I regret that I remain way too active responding to opinions I do not agree with (mea culpa).

I am getting better at ignoring (effectively giving other people the last say) on topics.

At some point I may completely withdraw, as many already have because it seems a little like sisyphus rolling that rock up the hill. Last man still standing wins the argument, 

JR

PS: I am not defending Trump per se, and he no doubt is a major source of frustration for the political elite from both (all) sides. but this cultural shift to aggressive political arguments (and media bias?) started a few administrations ago. It hasn't peaked yet. Let's hope it reverses soon. I miss the good old days when we could ignore washington DC. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

I have begun wondering when/why did politics expand to corrupt all human activity?

The weekly football game used to be an opportunity for mindless diversion...  now football games are politically charged.

Now even family gatherings (like thanksgiving) are likely to be disrupted by political arguments.

Discussing politics was the national sport, but only briefly before elections, with a return to normalcy after the results are in. With an embarrassingly low voter turnout in the US, it seems like there are more people arguing about elections, than actually voted in them.

Politics is not supposed to be a corrosive force in modern culture, corrupting sports and entertainment making it unpalatable for half the population (at some point the economics of chasing off half your customers should show up in the numbers****). 

The FF button on my DVR gets a lot of use, when political screeds show up in unexpected places... many shows I no longer even try to watch.

Just like a classic "follow the money" thesis, who benefits from all this divisive energy... I have some ideas but for now prefer to just ask the question.

So I am unsure of the why, but the how/when seems to linked to the rise of social media...(do they profit from divisive anger?).

Interesting times.... Glad that we have the discipline and good sense to not get sucked in.

JR

***** I saw some remarkable analysis (spin?)  in a newspaper article a few weeks back, saying that NFL ratings are down in both red states and blue states so the "taking a knee protest" is not responsible for the NFL ratings decline...  :.... doh, how about almost everybody dislikes the social justice intrusion into what should be a relaxing and entertaining sports event? (but me, I didn't watch football before).

 

[Phrazemaster]

I think anything that gets people riled up, angry, scared, or up in arms is what gets ratings and what gets promoted.

The unfortunate side-effect of the capitalistic model is money at all costs - so morality goes out the window.

That's why I think we would be better served to re-think our societal economic structures to one that promotes the best of people rather than the worst.

 

[DaveP]

In the early days of capitalism, very rich men were often philanthropists, Carnegie built libraries for example.  Bill gates is trying to rid the world of malaria, a rare modern example.

Money for monies sake is pointless unless you are a megalomaniac or terminally insecure, its what you do with it that really matters.  Capitalism makes sure that laziness doesn't pay, but its the good men and women who fall through the safety net that worry me.  A country is like one big family, but it only behaves like that when threatened in wartime, the rest of the time no gives a damn if the poorest get basic healthcare, or have enough to eat.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think anything that gets people riled up, angry, scared, or up in arms is what gets ratings and what gets promoted.

The unfortunate side-effect of the capitalistic model is money at all costs - so morality goes out the window.

I didn't mean to perpetuate the political arguments but what was I thinking??

If capitalism was the problem than cuba and venezuela would be heaven on earth.

That's why I think we would be better served to re-think our societal economic structures to one that promotes the best of people rather than the worst.

opinions vary...

The economic structure should promote freedom for everybody to improve their outcomes,

JR

 

[Script]

Yes, but reality tells us that often it doesn't do that...

------------------------------------------

And this is why I feel it's a bit of a pity that our member from New York decided to leave that quickly. Somewhat overreacted, I'd say... Anyway, I don't see that there is/was a double standard at play -- just clear 'thread posting rules' [meaning: that was not censorship].

Anyway, maybe we should politely invite him back in(?) He had many good points and a strong argumentative voice -- both good things. I have enjoyed reading about political things from vastly differing perspectives -- and I rejoice in hearing things from people directly. Because newspapers often don't deliver on that. With a strong voice like his having left, those political threads will quiet down -- for the better or worse.

It's also a pity that he decided to leave (and got granted that wish) because, especially in the US, the political left seems somewhat underrepresented, as compared to most European countries. So that was an interesting stance per se. Whether a DIY electronics forum is the right place for that I have my doubts (writing newspaper/online articles seem the better way, and the Brewery at times seemed to have morphed into a DIY politics forum) -- but then again, discussing the 'schematics' (i.e. systematics) of politics, why not!

Anyway, I enjoyed reading those political threads. Well, let's say 70% of them, as there is/was too much exegesis/reiteration (I said 'this' and you responded 'that' and what I meant was 'this' and then you said 'what?', and then I... and then someone else chimed in... and then... oh, boy). Well, I used to skip those parts as there is often very little point...

Then, filter out the New York manner of speaking, which to most people always sounds a bit 'pushy' and like 'fighting' (seems to be a cultural thing in the Big Apple), and what remains is stimulating discussions, often unresolvable btw. discussants -- but hey, it's politics after all. And being human, we all tend to get sensitized for different viewpoints and arguments in the long run.

I also enjoyed reading the aspect of decomposing 'opponent' arguments from all sides, at times successful (very good!), at times unsuccessful (for various reasons) -- but both good, cos we all have a strong 'will to believe' (used as proposed by John Dewey) -- meaning: different experiences and therefore different intellectually founded 'beliefs'.

Anyway, I propose we invite him back in. He's intellectual, intelligent and he knows the thread posting rules.

 

[L´Andratté]

If capitalism was the problem than cuba and venezuela would be heaven on earth.

Well that´s the kind of faulty logic I really don´t get, is it intentionally playing dumb?
If one thing A is bad, and a thing B is different from A, so it must be good???
And if B is not good, A can´t be that bad ????

+1 for SCRIPT

 

[tands]

If capitalism was the problem than cuba and venezuela would be heaven on earth. opinions vary...

I think it's this one.

Perfect solution fallacy

The perfect solution fallacy is a related informal fallacy that occurs when an argument assumes that a perfect solution exists or that a solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it were implemented. This is an example of black and white thinking, in which a person fails to see the complex interplay between multiple component elements of a situation or problem, and, as a result, reduces complex problems to a pair of binary extremes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

 

[Banzai]

If capitalism was the problem than cuba and venezuela would be heaven on earth. opinions vary...

Without 60-years of sanctions and oppression from the most powerful country on earth, only 100 miles away, who knows what Cuba could have been. This is always left out of conversations about '3rd world dictatorships' the West doesn't like.

First they crush them economically and block their access to new technologies, and then they point out how poor, backwards and screwed up they are...

 

[DaveP]

First they crush them economically and block their access to new technologies, and then they point out how poor, backwards and screwed up they are...

Although there is some truth in this statement, it is also true that communist dictatorships do not allow entrepreneurs to flourish so the system itself ensures stagnation.

DaveP

 

[tands]

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/932541280571351040

https://www.google.com/search?q=britain+arms+sales+saudi+arabia+yemen

 

[Tubetec]

Excellent post Script ,

There seems to be a re-occuring pattern with our medling in other countries politics.
At one point Sadam Husein was being bowed and scraped to by Rumsfeldt ,all in the name of selling him cluster bombs and chemical weapons ,after a certain time these people end up falling out of favour ,the sanctions get applied ,the country falls appart ,and the blame is layed on the dictatorship .Id bet if you asked the average Iraqi would they have rathered kept Sadam in power or endured the hardships  and instabillity of recent years ,they'd have taken the old dictator back in a heart beat .I think anyone who attempts to argue that our (The West)actions are in the favour of anyone but a few super rich and powerful entities is living in a dream world.

 

[Banzai]

Although there is some truth in this statement, it is also true that communist dictatorships do not allow entrepreneurs to flourish so the system itself ensures stagnation.

DaveP

Eh... China?

 

[DaveP]

Eh... China?

Exactly, Communism in China did not work so they embraced their own version of Capitalism.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

Well that´s the kind of faulty logic I really don´t get, is it intentionally playing dumb?

Do you mean ignorant? "dumb" means unable or unwilling to speak. (try to be a little more civil, even to me).

If one thing A is bad, and a thing B is different from A, so it must be good???
And if B is not good, A can´t be that bad ????

+1 for SCRIPT

I actually know a businessman living in FL whose parents had their business taken by the Castro regime. They relocated to FL penniless and started over from scratch. Today that son of a cuban immigrant is a very successful business owner.

Venezuela "was" the richest or one of the richest democracies in south america thanks to its oil wealth... Maduro is in the process of finishing the transition from democracy to dictatorship that Chavez started as he thwarts recall (by controlling the judiciary) and other democratic initiatives with help from Cuban military "advisors" (cough), to prevent venezuelan military from standing up against Maduro and suppress public opposition. The leading opposition candidate just escaped across the border to Columbia from house arrest in venezuela.

Just like Cuba, Venezuela nationalized many private industries and mismanaged them into unprofitability, and disrepair. For years high world oil prices kept them afloat, but as market prices for oil fell, the lack of maintenance and investment since they were nationalized has revealed the domestic oil industry's poor shape. Venezuela is now technically in default due to late/missed payments on international debt, and speculation that they will skip future payments on that debt and divert the funds to buy food and medicine to appease an increasingly angry public that might rise up and overthrow Maduro. A whole generation of the best and brightest young people have already left the country. 

Just like Russia supported Cuba before the cold war ended and their economic power waned, russia has already renegotiated their debt with venezuela trying to help them, but the rest of the world would like their interest payments.

Yes, cuba could return to their former glory as a tourist destination only 90 miles from the US coast, if they treated their citizens better. The sanctions against them have nothing to do with capitalism and communism, but their oppressive dictatorship and human rights abuses.  Venezuela had a sweet deal with all that oil wealth but have squandered it with mismanagement of the private assets they seized and then mismanaged. In fact they have disrupted so much private industry across the economy that people can't get basic healthcare, and food (I reported a while back that they were having trouble getting currency to import  supplies to brew beer locally). 

Government price fixing doesn't magically make low cost food and medicine appear. We learned that in the '70s when we tried to control the price of oil, and supply dried up until we removed the price controls and copious supply magically reappeared. 

JR

PS: I apologize for perpetuating the debate about economic systems and forms of government (often conflated), but that is the current cultural climate were are in... That climate seems to be warming too.  :

 

[JohnRoberts]

Exactly, Communism in China did not work so they embraced their own version of Capitalism.

DaveP

This is also well discussed but capitalism is not a political system but an economic system. China discovered the benefits of capitalism when the british lease on hong kong expired and control reverted back to china (2000).

China is conflicted with hong kong's democratic leanings, but has adopted their own version of capitalism to supercharge mainland industry. Chinese capitalism is not pure as they still suffer from too much government interventions and central planning, often leading into inventory excesses in some industries, and trade complaints when product is dumped (sold for less than true cost) internationally, like solar panels. Some zombie (bankrupt) companies are kept alive by government controlled lending, to keep the doors open and machines running.

I am not holding my breath for democracy to break out in China overnight but capitalism depends on the right to own property and rule of law, so better than what they had before, and could increase democratic desires over time. 

JR 

 

[Gustav]

This is also well discussed but capitalism is not a political system but an economic system.

If you subscribe to "follow the money" reductionism, where do you see a difference between the two?

China discovered the benefits of capitalism when the british lease on hong kong expired and control reverted back to china (2000).

Deng Xiaoping  started capitalist reform in China.

...I had to google the year (also, how to spell Deng Xiaoping ), but 1978.

Gustav

 

[Banzai]

The sanctions against them have nothing to do with capitalism and communism, but their oppressive dictatorship and human rights abuses.

So the US collectively punished the entire Cuban population for half a century, because they cared about their human rights?

I wonder how the US felt about characters like Pinochet and Noriega; the paramilitary death squads in Colombia, El Salvador and Guatemala; the Contras in Nicaragua?

Calling it double standards doesn't even begin to do it justice.

 

[JohnRoberts]

If you subscribe to "follow the money" reductionism, where do you see a difference between the two?

I do not embrace reductionism carried to extremis, but money definitely has influence in our system. Following the money, or equivalents, is often instructive.

I do not oppose all regulation, as unfettered capitalism can lead to abuses, but too much regulation is as harmful as too little (IMO)..

Deng Xiaoping  started capitalist reform in China.

...I had to google the year (also, how to spell Deng Xiaoping ), but 1978.

Gustav

It is hard to ignore the influence of Hong Kong, but apparently not impossible...    ;D

China has many leaders college educated in the US, so not surprising to see influence from outside ideas.

JR

 

[L´Andratté]

Hey JR, that wasn´t meant impolite to you --> hence "playing" dumb
Maybe spoken too careless: sorry!