Brewery politics

[JohnRoberts]

Hey JR, that wasn´t meant impolite to you --> hence "playing" dumb
Maybe spoken too careless: sorry!

No problem but be aware that written communication can be received differently than we intend.

"It's nice to be nice.."

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

So the US collectively punished the entire Cuban population for half a century, because they cared about their human rights?

cute but not even close... Do you recall the Cuban missile crisis when Russian ICBMs were placed 90 miles from us?  Cuba was an active surrogate for Russian intervention in the Americas. After the cold war ended and Russia lacked the resources to be as aggressive they still continues to stir the pot (all around the world).

For the record my friends parents did not leave Cuba because of US sanctions, but because the castro government stole his business (I think they sold furniture).

When Kennedy threatened a military response to Russian missiles based there Khrushchev blinked and withdrew them.  In case it isn't obvious economic sanctions are the diplomatic and peaceful alternative to using military force.

I wonder how the US felt about characters like Pinochet and Noriega; the paramilitary death squads in Colombia, El Salvador and Guatemala; the Contras in Nicaragua?

South America has and had many problems over the decades. It is likely to get worse in some areas in the near future as there is an active effort to deport more MS13 street gang members (mostly el salvador but also guatemala and other countries in the region). Deporting them does not stop their bad behavior, just shifts the problem onto the small country governments to manage.  Many gang members return or try to because they like the US as a better economic opportunity for street gangs.  :

Long term we need to provide more support to these small SA countries so they can solve the problems locally, this is just a variant of kicking the can down the road for later, since they are not going away or reformed.

Calling it double standards doesn't even begin to do it justice.

I prefer diplomacy over ballistic warfare when possible.  The fact that sanctions affect the population is because that is how it works. Economic stress on the population causes political stress to flow toward their own government. The cuban government is brutal about squashing dissent. The solution is not to give the cuban government more income*** to keep fund doing bad.

JR

*** The few tourists allowed to visit Cuba do not create paydays for cuban workers, but the hotel revenue dollars mostly flow directly to the Cuban government, with service workers paid peanuts. All those 1950s cars on the street are not because they like old cars.

 

[tands]

Service workers get paid peanuts here too, except in cuba they have health care, and they don't work harder than everybody else for less pay, and still barely survive (or not).

 

[tands]

UN chief 'horrified' at buying and selling of African migrants in Libya

20 November 2017 – Expressing horror at news reports and videos showing African migrants in Libya allegedly being sold as slaves, United Nations Secretary-General António Guterres on Monday called on the authorities to urgently investigate the situation and bring the perpetrators to justice.

“Slavery has no place in our world and these actions are among the most egregious abuses of human rights and may amount to crimes against humanity,” Mr. Guterres told reporters at a press stakeout at the UN Headquarters, in New York, Monday.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=58127

 

[tands]

Herp a derp. ISIS says Thanks Obama!

   

REPORT: The US Is Openly Sending Heavy Weapons From Libya To Syrian Rebels

    Geoffrey Ingersoll and Michael B Kelley

    Dec. 9,  2012

The Obama administration has decided to launch a covert operation to send heavy weapons to Syrian rebels, Christina Lamb of The Sunday Times of London reports.

Diplomatic sources told the Sunday Times that the U.S. "bought weapons from the stockpiles of Libya's former dictator Muammar Gaddafi."

The heavy arms include mortars, rocket propelled grenades, anti-tank missiles and the controversial anti-aircraft heat-seeking SA-7 missiles, which are integral to countering Bashar Al-Assad's bombing campaign.

Many have suspected that the US was already involved in sending heavy arms.

The administration has said that the previously hidden CIA operation in Benghazi involved finding, repurchasing and destroying heavy weaponry looted from Libyan government arsenals, but in October we reported evidence indicating that U.S. agents — particularly murdered ambassador Chris Stevens — were at least aware of heavy weapons moving from Libya to jihadist Syrian rebels.

There have been several possible SA-7 spottings in Syria dating as far back as early summer 2012, and there are indications that at least some of Gaddafi's 20,000 portable heat-seeking missiles were shipped before now.

On Sept. 6 a Libyan ship carrying 400 tons of weapons for Syrian rebels docked in southern Turkey. The ship's captain was "a Libyan from Benghazi" who worked for the new Libyan government. The man who organized that shipment, Tripoli Military Council head Abdelhakim Belhadj, worked directly with Stevens during the Libyan revolution.

Stevens' last meeting on Sept. 11 was with Turkish Consul General Ali Sait Akin, and  a source told Fox News  that  Stevens was in Benghazi "to negotiate a weapons transfer in an effort to get SA-7 missiles out of the hands of Libya-based extremists."

Last month The Wall Street Journal reported that the State Department presence in Benghazi "provided diplomatic cover" for the now-exposed CIA annex. It follows that the "weapons transfer" that Stevens negotiated may have involved sending heavy weapons recovered by the CIA to the revolutionaries in Syria.

The newest report comes days before the U.S. is expected to recognize the newest Syrian coalition as the legitimate representative of the Syrian people. The State Department has also indicated it will soon name the opposition's highly effective al-Nusra Front a "terrorist organization" for its ties to Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI).

Both of these stipulations — recognition of a unified opposition and creation of distance from extremists — are pivotal in order for the Obama administration to openly acknowledge supporting Syrian rebels with heavy weapons.

http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-admin-admits-to-covertly-sending-heavy-weapons-to-syrian-rebels-2012-12

 

[benb]

I perceived an uptick in partisan political arguments in the brewery long before Trump was on anybody's radar.

I haven't been reading here closely, but I've noticed it in the outside world. About 8 to 12 years ago there was an author (regrettably I don't remember his or his book's name) interviewed on Fresh Air about the then-current state of politics - in the (say) 1960s neighborhoods were fairly well mixed politically so that you were likely to have a neighbor of the other political party from you. That changed over the decades so that neighborhoods became mostly one party or the other, so the people in each party became more isolated from those of the other party, and that (apparently the author's point) caused or contributed to the current political divide.

It seems to many that things keep getting worse (and people watching the news see mass murderers and police shooting people, especially black men), yet the Ted talks of Peter Diamandis and Steven Pinker tell how this is actually the best and safest time in history to be alive of any time in history. But people watch the news media a lot more than they watch a couple of fact-filled TED talks. It's also easy to believe "it's the other side's fault. If it weren't for them we wouldn't be going to Hell in a handbasket."

For your viewing pleasure:
https://www.ted.com/talks/peter_diamandis_abundance_is_our_future#t-11491
https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence#t-21500

PS: I am not defending Trump per se, and he no doubt is a major source of frustration for the political elite from both (all) sides. but this cultural shift to aggressive political arguments (and media bias?) started a few administrations ago. It hasn't peaked yet. Let's hope it reverses soon. I miss the good old days when we could ignore washington DC.

There was the saying "too big to fail" for big companies - the stuff that goes on in DC is surely in many ways "too big to ignore." But that's not even the problem. It seems too many people are near the endpoints of a political continuum and yelling past one another, and there's not enough people in the middle to negotiate reasonable things. So we get a see-saw that goes up and down. One President/Congress passing health insurance controlled by government and through a government-controlled website, and the next President/Congress dismantling it.

Yet the world seems to be getting better in spite of this.

 

[tands]

So yeah, Venezuela and Cuba haven't hurt anybody the way the US and Britain do every single day, year after year, now have they?

 

[benb]

While I'm here there's also the dichotomy of capitalism versus socialism/communism/anti-capitalism. There's likely not been a country/nation that's purely one or the other, and even where (for example) communism is the law, there's been underground capitalism. Governments may do a lot to stop illegal activity, but so far no government has had full and complete power over its citizens.

 

[tands]

It seems to many that things keep getting worse (and people watching the news see mass murderers and police shooting people, especially black men), yet the Ted talks of Peter Diamandis and Steven Pinker tell how this is actually the best and safest time in history to be alive of any time in history. But people watch the news media a lot more than they watch a couple of fact-filled TED talks. It's also easy to believe "it's the other side's fault. If it weren't for them we wouldn't be going to Hell in a handbasket."

For your viewing pleasure:
https://www.ted.com/talks/peter_diamandis_abundance_is_our_future#t-11491
https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence#t-21500

I came across a twitter thread that has a bunch of pictures of dead children, with people arguing over who killed them the Houthis or the Saudis. Would you like to see it? It has a  burned baby in one of the pictures.

Do let me know.

 

[Banzai]

cute but not even close... Do you recall the Cuban missile crisis when Russian ICBMs were placed 90 miles from us?  Cuba was an active surrogate for Russian intervention in the Americas. After the cold war ended and Russia lacked the resources to be as aggressive they still continues to stir the pot (all around the world).

Your post is written as if it's 1970, and the jury's still out... There's now 60-years of data showing sanctions are useless and ineffective, and only inflict misery on civilian populations. The Cuban government is currently no threat to the US, and your only other option aside sanctions isn't war...

Are you also honestly outraged by brutal squashing of dissent when the US arms and aids Saudi Arabia, and China is your number one trading partner? Do you have any concept of double standards?  ???

The solution is not to give the cuban government more income*** to keep fund doing bad.

You conveniently gloss over the fact the US armed and funded anti-communist death squads in S. America who killed hundreds of thousands of people. Pinochet killed 30'000. Noriega, the Contras, all this was real. Do you really think the 'SA had problems' is an appropriate way to describe all this?

And today the US continues to actively arm and support dictatorships who murder civilians. What's the point of even trying to argue there is any morality to the US's actions? They don't even care anymore, openly brazen about serving their own interests, regardless of human impact.

 

[JohnRoberts]

So yeah, Venezuela and Cuba haven't hurt anybody the way the US and Britain do every single day, year after year, now have they?

Opinions vary and in some circles it is popular to make blanket accusations like that. I do not want to try to imagine what the world would look like if the US did not exist, and did not support Europe in the world wars.  If the evil powers won the world could be a much uglier place.

Venezuela is in the news a lot lately because their debt and political crisis may be coming to a head, but some dictators can persist despite decades of forced public deprivation. A recent report out of Venezuela describes how the government controls the very limited food supply with the equivalent of food stamps only issued to Maduro supporters, others get to starve.  This is hard to imagine but reported in the newspaper.

Communism seems to be rehabilitated by recent political rhetoric but we would have to ignore the millions killed and/or starved since the russian revolution a century ago.  I have seen estimates that communism killed some 100 million souls in the 20th century, comparable with the number killed fighting WWI and WWII combined.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

While I'm here there's also the dichotomy of capitalism versus socialism/communism/anti-capitalism. There's likely not been a country/nation that's purely one or the other, and even where (for example) communism is the law, there's been underground capitalism. Governments may do a lot to stop illegal activity, but so far no government has had full and complete power over its citizens.

Do you think there is a lot of underground capitalism in North Korea?  (I don't).

[edit- I guess you could argue selling migrants in Libya as slaves is a form of capitalism.....  :  [/edit]

JR

 

[DaveP]

Tands,

If you are going to post stuff, at least make sure it has some elements of truth about it if you want to be taken seriously.

This is juvenile.

Global poverty has as much to do with the choices people make over how many children they have as it does over any system.
Even the Pope says there is no need to breed like rabbits in an overcrowded world.

The Korean war was fought under the authority of the UN.  Vietnam was fought after invasion from the North.

Getting rid of Capitalism will not stop ruthless dictators from oppressing people, sometimes they can only be stopped by war.

Only a few of the items on that list were due to capitalism, most were due to bad actors wanting what other people had.

There are more intelligent people of this forum than everyday life because electronics is a science (Matt was a good example).

You will become a low credibility source if you continue to post childish propaganda in the hope we might swallow it.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=58127

I am shocked that the UN is shocked.... : : :

It looks like deposing Gaddafi without a government to police the territory was still a bad idea. Note: Gaddafi had already given up his nuclear program, so removing him from power after that is evidence that the west can not be trusted in such matters.

I didn't see much discussion about how much slavery is still going on all around the world, and how slavery is codified under shariah law.  (non believers can escape punishment by paying tribute or serve as slaves. )

According to Robert Davis in "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters," from 1530 to 1780, over a million Europeans were captured and sold as slaves by the Barbary powers. Morocco was an independent sultanate, while Tunis (capital of today's Tunisia), Algiers (Algeria) and Tripoli (Libya) were semiautonomous provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Most European nations found it cheaper to pay a fee for protection rather than fight.

Europe chose to pay the tribute to the Tripoli pirates, the US decided not to pay the tribute and as a result hundreds of marines were temporarily enslaved, until the US forces released them.

The UN being shocked reveals a poor understanding of regional history (google Barbary wars).  That is not shocking.


JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Your post is written as if it's 1970, and the jury's still out... There's now 60-years of data showing sanctions are useless and ineffective, and only inflict misery on civilian populations. The Cuban government is currently no threat to the US, and your only other option aside sanctions isn't war...

I was responding to a mention of how long the conflict between the US and Cuba was in existence.

Are you also honestly outraged by brutal squashing of dissent when the US arms and aids Saudi Arabia, and China is your number one trading partner? Do you have any concept of double standards?  ???

Life does not give us easy choices, only lesser evils. Doing nothing is in fact doing something as we have seen in the rise of ISIS.

You conveniently gloss over the fact the US armed and funded anti-communist death squads in S. America who killed hundreds of thousands of people. Pinochet killed 30'000. Noriega, the Contras, all this was real. Do you really think the 'SA had problems' is an appropriate way to describe all this?

Far too much history to litigate it all... we can't change history so it only advises us about mistake to not make again.

And today the US continues to actively arm and support dictatorships who murder civilians. What's the point of even trying to argue there is any morality to the US's actions? They don't even care anymore, openly brazen about serving their own interests, regardless of human impact.

We will need to agree to disagree...  The world has many bad actors, and many even worse actors... no easy choices.  I repeat doing nothing is doing something.

JR

 

[dmp]

I agree that sanctions and isolating these countries is more about abuse of power than actually accomplishing anything.
Recently a defector from N. Korea ran across to S Korea and was shot several times. The doctors in S Korea found his intestines were infected with parasites, some 10" long. The living conditions in N Korea are deplorable and the cruelty of it falls on the poor. The leaders of the country still live in luxury.  It has created a dynamic where the leaders of these nations see their goal as nuclear weapons, since countries that achieve that goal, get a seat at the table and much less forced economic hardship.
The USA was so anti socialist throughout the second half of the 20th century that they would economically attack countries that tried other economic systems. The US caused regime change in several countries, like Chile, that create huge instability and economic hardship for people.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I agree that sanctions and isolating these countries is more about abuse of power than actually accomplishing anything.
Recently a defector from N. Korea ran across to S Korea and was shot several times. The doctors in S Korea found his intestines were infected with parasites, some 10" long. The living conditions in N Korea are deplorable and the cruelty of it falls on the poor. The leaders of the country still live in luxury.  It has created a dynamic where the leaders of these nations see their goal as nuclear weapons, since countries that achieve that goal, get a seat at the table and much less forced economic hardship.

Do you have an alternate suggestion for economic sanctions against North Korea?

The USA was so anti socialist throughout the second half of the 20th century that they would economically attack countries that tried other economic systems. The US caused regime change in several countries, like Chile, that create huge instability and economic hardship for people.

hmmm...

I do not endorse regime change, except for every 4 years using a free vote.

N Korea is a terrible situation that has been kicked down the road by past administrations allowing it to develop into a real mess.  If rocket man pops a nuke into the west coast or Japan, or Guam.. we will see some real excitement. 

I am encouraged that China appears engaged (sent an envoy to N Korea to negotiate). N Korea has been defended by China, so they kind of own it.

JR

PS: Speaking of owning stuff, Russia just blocked UN resolution calling for investigation of Syrian use of chemical weapons. The world is like a 3D chessboard with all kinds of factors in conflict. I repeat doing nothing is doing something. 

 

[benb]

Do you think there is a lot of underground capitalism in North Korea?  (I don't).

[edit- I guess you could argue selling migrants in Libya as slaves is a form of capitalism.....  :  [/edit]

JR

I don't know about "a lot of" but it appears to be greater than zero.

 

[tands]

I am shocked that the UN is shocked.... : : :

It looks like deposing Gaddafi without a government to police the territory was still a bad idea. Note: Gaddafi had already given up his nuclear program, so removing him from power after that is evidence that the west can not be trusted in such matters.

This was my point, the UN are mostly just a bunch of capitalist handwavers. An open channel for corruption. The well fed dude comes out to talk about slavery now, not when Clinton broke the country (oopsie!), and now only to help sell some neoliberal immigration program.

Liberals are useless.

.

 

[tands]

So yeah, Venezuela and Cuba haven't hurt anybody the way the US and Britain do every single day, year after year, now have they?

Opinions vary and in some circles it is popular to make blanket accusations like that. I do not want to try to imagine what the world would look like if the US did not exist, and did not support Europe in the world wars.  If the evil powers won the world could be a much uglier place.

Evil powers won the world, John, and the US is the biggest one. Hello, this is what it looks like.

Venezuela is in the news a lot lately because their debt and political crisis may be coming to a head, but some dictators can persist despite decades of forced public deprivation. A recent report out of Venezuela describes how the government controls the very limited food supply with the equivalent of food stamps only issued to Maduro supporters, others get to starve.  This is hard to imagine but reported in the newspaper.

Venezuela voted a month ago to keep Maduro, 18 out of 23 provinces. What was that you were saying about being against regime change, but in favor of elections? How many votes do you get in their elections, John?

Communism seems to be rehabilitated by recent political rhetoric but we would have to ignore the millions killed and/or starved since the russian revolution a century ago.  I have seen estimates that communism killed some 100 million souls in the 20th century, comparable with the number killed fighting WWI and WWII combined.

I feel free ignoring 'some estimates' when I can open up the internet today and see that capitalists killed 50,000 yemeni children this year.