Brexit

[DaveP]

Not really, May's popularity is rising and Corbyn's is rock bottom now, perfect timing.

DaveP

It was but she was over confident and ran a poor campaign, Corbyn on the other hand ran a very good one.

May thought she could put what she liked in her manifesto, but Corbyn put what the public wanted.

It was also perceived as arrogance that she refused to appear in TV debates.

Defeat clutched from from the jaws of victory!

DaveP

 

[micaddict]

It was also perceived as arrogance that she refused to appear in TV debates.

Fear comes to mind, too.

Either way, when you refuse to debate, you have no business in politics.

Even more so when you're the challenger.

 

[ramshackles]

It was but she was over confident and ran a poor campaign, Corbyn on the other hand ran a very good one.

May thought she could put what she liked in her manifesto, but Corbyn put what the public wanted.

Absolutely. May ran a campaign focused on meaningless soundbites and slurring the opposition. I continually got the impression that she thought she was entitled to the leadership rather than attempting to show she was worthy of it. Slipping proposals such as legalising fox hunting once more into the manifesto showed her arrogance.

Corbyn ran a campaign based around positivity and hope. The contrast was aptly displayed by the leaflets I got for my local candidates. The Tory leaflet devoted a full page to slandering Mr Corbyn. They filled the rest of the leaflet with Ms. Mays' soundbites. In fact, her name appeared on the leaflet more than the actual candidates! Labours leaflet simply detailed what the candidate would fight for and promote for our constituency and then what wider labour policies would help that.

 

[micaddict]

Although her arrogance may (excuse pun) have cost her votes, on the other hand she did get some 315 seats.

Something tells me her followers/voters may not be entirely immune to arrogance, either.

 

[DaveP]

The irony is that labour voters who had voted for Brexit in the referendum, chose to shift their focus to domestic issues, just before we start Brexit negotiations.  So the UK's bargaining position is completely trashed along with May's reputation.

The election has shifted to a young versus old contest, the first time in my lifetime this has happened.  The older ones among us have learned that anyone can promise stuff, paying for it is another matter, first time young voters have yet to grasp that concept.

DaveP

 

[ramshackles]

The election has shifted to a young versus old contest

Not really, since the older vote far outweighs the younger vote. If corbyn had only won over younger votes he wouldnt have gained nearly as many seats.

 

[ruffrecords]

(Double post, sorry!)

Free education? Absolutely. For tapping talent nationwide and across groups of people independent of parental income and status.

When I went to university it was the other way round. Higher education was means tested. The poor went for free and the better off had to pay towards it. My father refused to pay his contribution because my mother disapproved of the girl i was engaged to (now my wife of over 40 years). I was poorer than many of my mates from working class backgrounds who got a full grant. I worked during the holidays to pay my way. At the Christmas  holidays I went home and ate as much as I could and my wieght went up to 10 and a half stones.. Throughout the next term I lost a stone because after accommodation costs, books, paper and beer, there was not much  left for food!! Two years later my sister went ti university and the parental contribution was shared. I got a nice pay rise that year!

Cheers

ian

 

[micaddict]

The election has shifted to a young versus old contest, the first time in my lifetime this has happened.  The older ones among us have learned that anyone can promise stuff, paying for it is another matter, first time young voters have yet to grasp that concept.

DaveP

I'm afraid the old aren't always wiser than the young.
At 53 I guess I'm old enough to say that. 

And thinking like an accountant while relying only on the old, trusted parameters isn't always the wisest thing, either.
Not for the planet and not even for the economy.

Arguably the most powerful man in the world is turning 71 next Wednesday.
He says: "Let's get back to coal to create some jobs. It worked in the past."

 

[Script]

[... Corbyn] has not said how we can pay for that except by increasing our borrowing[...]

Just a wild guess, but might it be the generation 50+ (a majority of which voted for Brexit) who's going to pay for it first (higher taxes & cuts in pensions)? And the remaining chunk will be paid in the indefinitely remote future as with any other government?

Could it be that Brexiteers like Farage and that other fish'n'chips face knew this all along but would not have dared to bring it up back then for fear of losing possible votes? But then again, if just as many 50+ voters opted for Corbyn as young people did, then that'd point to an overll different, very youth-friendly mindset

Apart from that I don't think it's appropriate to call younger voters (below age 50, 40, 30) naive when it comes to the future of Britain, when it comes to future government spendings, and when it comes to political promises from any party. I want to believe that every single one of them is just as well informed now as any other voter was in the Brexit referendum of late.

 

[DaveP]

By "young" we are talking about 18 to 25 year olds who registered to vote for the first time.

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

UKIP 0%

Thanks for playing,  and good-bye...

 

[Script]

I'd claim that even voters aged below 25 have a right to their own mistakes (as did older voters in the referendum). But it really doesn't look like the young decided this election. But even if they did it doesn't really matter.

My point is that a Corbyn-influenced government might do just the kind of thing that UKIP and the Brexiteers (must have) had in mind without voicing it out loud (albeit in Corbyn's case without the right-wing outlook and damage & with possibly with less of 'neoliberal' thinking, WTM).

So what looks like a swing from one political extreme to another isn't really that great a change. Just as you said, Dave, people probably started looking at domestic issues. And Corbyn is, after all, the delivery on one of the many motives behind the Brexit referendum outcome, namely anti-establishment and focus on the 'disfranchised' (although I would never call them that).

Anyway, I don't know what Corbyn did in the 1970s. I was too young to understand. But that is 40 years ago and he should be given the benefit of the doubt. Who knows, maybe he brings some noise to the Brexit negotiation table on what has long been missing in the entire EU contract (although it won't have much effect, I'm afraid).

So, as I said, on a larger scale, it's an interesting development.

[Only an aside: Too bad that the UK couldn't have an anti-establishment type like Corbyn (needn't to be him) without having to buy into Brexit first. But there we go...]

[Another aside: Apart from that, I seem to be one of few people who don't see public spending as that big a problem. After all, it's the only logical step after/accompanying QE and a means to get money circulating. As for household consolidation, against a backdrop of QE and near zero interest rates, that is an issue that almost any politician should be able to alleviate somehow, unless stuck deep in the swamps for other reasons at the same time.]

 

[Script]

Yet another interpretation: The election outcome is a 'slap in the face' of Brexiteers and a clear 'no' to a hard Brexit. Whatever that means or implies...

May asked the Queen to allow her stay in office? Huh?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Democracy is messy... the UK will survive.

Good luck to all our UK (and EU) friends.

JR

 

[micaddict]

Yeah, May um... remains.

What a mess.

And what a "joke".

I remember a fellow who went to Brussels to say: "You're not laughing now, are you?"

I have a feeling they're laughing their heads off right now in Brussels.

Not that it's my kind of humour.

 

[Script]

Japan sure is further away than Bruxelles, but yes.. somewhat.

Seems that many former UKIP voters (leave the EU and all that) gave their vote to labour this time. Hm, if May really thinks she must absolutely remain as premier to fulfill the will of the people, I'd say she's a bit hard of the hearing... 

Or maybe she's cleverer than we alll think, will continues for a little longer to play the lame duck she accused of being, and meanwhile digs up the old Cameron plans. Haha!

 

[ruffrecords]

[... Corbyn] has not said how we can pay for that except by increasing our borrowing[...]

Just a wild guess, but might it be the generation 50+ (a majority of which voted for Brexit) who's going to pay for it first (higher taxes & cuts in pensions)? And the remaining chunk will be paid in the indefinitely remote future as with any other government?

Corbyn would never cut pensions. Too many Labour votes subsist on the state pension alone.

Apart from that I don't think it's appropriate to call younger voters (below age 50, 40, 30) naive when it comes to the future of Britain, when it comes to future government spendings, and when it comes to political promises from any party. I want to believe that every single one of them is just as well informed now as any other voter was in the Brexit referendum of late.

Being well informed is not a cure for naivety.  Unfortunately the young have little experience of the long term fallout of Labour over spending. With readily available credit these days, is it any wonder the young believe the government can borrow a load of money and spend their way out of a crisis. Older folk know better.

Cheers

Ian

 

[ruffrecords]

Yeah, May um... remains.

What a mess.

And what a "joke".

No joke. We have had hung parliaments before. I like them because because it means all the radical policies go in the waste bin and the politicians have to sit down with each other and work together for a change just like the rest of us.

Cheers

Ian

I remember a fellow who went to Brussels to say: "You're not laughing now, are you?"

I have a feeling they're laughing their heads off right now in Brussels.

Not that it's my kind of humour.
[/quote]

 

[Script]

[...] would never cut pensions. Too many [...] votes subsist on the state pension alone.

That sums up any politician of any ruling party in any country.

Sure, 'cutting' pensions sounds bad. You really need to think 'cutting the purchasing power' of pensions, both synchronously and diachronically.

But you are right, MrC would (have been) be(en) the kind of candidate most likely to avoid any sweeping 'cuts in the purchasing power' of pension money.

 

[DaveP]

It's weird how different people see the same person.

To the young, he is like a father Christmas figure and a man of the people and principle.

To me he is a rebel who voted against his own labour government  (Blair won three elections) on almost every occasion.  He was sympathetic to the IRA , Hamas and the Tamil Tigers; if he applied to join the secret services he would fail their vetting procedure.  He would take us back to the days of militant tendency in the 80's if he ever got to power.

Because he would refuse to retaliate with our nuclear deterrent it would be rendered useless overnight.  I find him a detestable self-righteous little weasel of a man. 

DaveP