Brexit

[DaveP]

Point is most people *didn't* vote for a Tory government...

Majority of Brits will spend the next 5-years being dictated to by a minority. Not a great look for a democracy.

They didn't vote for the alternatives in sufficient numbers either, so they were not a cohesive majority, they were a collection of minority views.

DaveP

 

[living sounds]

No, you are wrong, Italy has had 65 governments and the UK 25.
Germany's parties were not so extreme and much more stable at 24
France is a country of extreme views at 66
The same extremes exist in Italy so no government lasts for long.
The hard left and hard right have no place in any government IMHO

You confused elections with governments.
https://www.euronews.com/2016/12/13/why-do-italian-governments-change-so-often

DaveP

You made my point for me there in your own link.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Majority of Brits will spend the next 5-years being dictated to by a minority. Not a great look for a democracy.

Isn't it always the case? M32 voters, M13 for BJ. Even when Chirac won 82% against Le Pen, the number of voters was M32, so about M24 voted for Chirac, less than half the population.

 

[Tubetec]

I think you have to consider that the election was tampered with no matter what way you voted , how else could places that have only voted Labour for 100 years or more suddenly change to Conservative ? 
Sedgefield a predominantly white working class constituency ,considered a labour heartland.

When you think about it, all you'd need to do is buy up some advertising space online ,then blanket bomb everyone in Sedgefield with what might appear like  'pro Labour' adds picturing Corbyn with happy smiles alongside people of non white ethnicity . Thats just one example of how things could be 'jerry' rigged without even raising suspicion .  Just thinking about what JR said about getting negative Trump publicity and another person who ,maybe wasnt a Trump supporter getting pro Trump messages .
Sending out internet adds isnt the same as a centre page spread in a local news paper , the who or whats behind and content of online adds can simply vanish into the ether after its served its purpose , maybe if your undecided on how you'll vote a smattering of  anti Trump adds might have the complete opposite effect and make you more likely to vote for him . I know Ive been banging on a long time about data protection and privacy , but once the data is out there it can be put to all kinds of misuses .  Ireland is long overdue an election , its almost certain to happen in the next few months , chances of a free and fair elections less than ever  , as we know there was always ways of tampering with the results as long as theres been politics , with modern media its just way more easy for  external influences to be brought to bear .  I know were never all going to agree on the same things but at least we are keeping the discussion relatively well mannered  .

 

[DaveP]

I think you have to consider that the election was tampered with no matter what way you voted , how else could places that have only voted Labour for 100 years or more suddenly change to Conservative ?

Do you get to see UK TV in Eire?
All the reporters have been asking people in the north why they did not vote labour this time.

There was no conspiricy or internet influence, they voted conservative because they detested Corbyn and didn't see how he could possibly pay for his manifesto.  If they could not bear to vote Tory they voted Brexit party instead.

People are more affluent than 100 years ago and they own their own homes for the most part.  These former Labour voters never moved on to LGBTQ, HAMAS, BAME, Venezuela issues, they have lost the Labour Party they once knew.

DaveP

 

[Tubetec]

All the UK terrestrial TV stations are available here on FTA satelite here in Ireland . I used have them for many years , but I dont really watch much TV anymore ,apart from some local news.

I found a fairly well balanced appraisal of the elections here ,

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50785051

 

[rob_gould]

Wanna know what happened in Sedgefiled?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/15/blair-old-seat-sedgefield-rejected-corbyn-perceived-unpatriotic

Talking to regulars the same allegations surface again and again. That Corbyn consorted with the IRA, that he is soft on terrorists. That he has remained silent on prosecuting veterans over the Bloody Sunday killings. The leader’s shifting agnosticism on Brexit, in this context, is portrayed as yet another failure of patriotism, just as symbolic as his unforgivable reluctance to sing God save the Queen at a Battle of Britain remembrance service.

So grains of truth mixed in with a good helping of total bollocks, much like how a lot of people's opinions of Corbyn were formed.

There's no doubt that he's been under sustained attack since taking office.  From the right wing corporate press, from supposedly friendlier media outlets like the Guardian and the BBC, and also through continuous campaigns of propaganda and misinformation on the internet.  I'm sorry but if you are really telling me that either A - these things didn't happen or B - people are too clever to have been taken in by them then you really haven't looked hard enough (or you've been taken in )

I'm no Corbyn fanatic by the way, just someone who tries to sift through the bullsh*t in politics in the hope I can  reach a properly informed opinion.  And boy oh boy, has there been a lot of bullsh*t to sift through in that election campaign; almost all of it going in one direction.

 

[ruffrecords]

Point is most people *didn't* vote for a Tory government...

No, the point is, that is how democracy works when there  are more than two choices. More people voted conservative than for any other choice.

Cheers

ian

 

[DaveP]

During the last Labour government, Mr Corbyn — then a backbench MP — rebelled some 428 times against his party’s leadership in parliamentary votes.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-has-jeremy-corbyn-ever-voted-with-the-conservatives-in-parliament.

This fact tells you why he lost the labour vote.  He moved the Labour Party to his position with Momentum, but the voters were still back with the Labour Party that won three elections.  He is way left of the traditional Labour Party .

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

No, the point is, that is how democracy works when there  are more than two choices. More people voted conservative than for any other choice.

Cheers

ian

No, that's how your concept of democracy works, because the UK has an archaic electoral system just like the US.

Majority of voters didn't vote Tory, and rejected 'Get Brexit Done'... but Tories and Brexit won.

 

[Banzai]

Isn't it always the case? M32 voters, M13 for BJ. Even when Chirac won 82% against Le Pen, the number of voters was M32, so about M24 voted for Chirac, less than half the population.

Of course – if we take general population, you only need between 15 to 20% to win in most countries.

But I'm only talking about the voting population that turns up to vote. Proportional representation makes much more sense in a multi-party system. People's votes actually count instead of just being thrown away.

 

[DaveP]

But I'm only talking about the voting population that turns up to vote. Proportional representation makes much more sense in a multi-party system. People's votes actually count instead of just being thrown away.

This only works if the various parties can tolerate working with one another (like Germany), if they can't then you get an Italy with 66 governments since the war.  Or the situation in Israel or the recent crisis in Belgium.

With the "archaic" first past the post system, the most popular party  gets to form a government.  It is therefore in the various parties interest to offer what they think will be most popular.  If they only offer what they  want and the public reject their policies, then they have only themselves to blame, which is exactly what just happened here in the UK.

Before Boris won we had a taste of what PR would have been like with 3 years of stalemate and inaction.  You can keep it!

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

Before Boris won we had a taste of what PR would have been like with 3 years of stalemate and inaction.  You can keep it!

DaveP

+50. A permanently hung Parliament - politicians wheeling and dealing every day just to grab a smidgen of power - never actually DOING any thing for the country and voters - we just had over three years of that crap - no thank you very much.

Cheers

Ian

 

[living sounds]

Now the people will get a taste of Brexit and a rightwing government. Good night and good luck.

 

[alexc]

Same thing here in Oz ..  mostly hung parliament with slender mandates  ..  waffling on forever I would say for  13 years or so.

Still one has to have faith in the  peoples choice  ..  as  mr pacino once said  ..  'right or  wroong'.

What else is there ? 

 

[alexc]

And I'm happy enough to take my 'chances' with that  ..

Your 'mileage' may of course differ.

 

[s2udio]

Now the people will get a taste of Brexit and a rightwing government. Good night and good luck.

Rather that than the  marxist/communist agenda of the far left

 

[abbey road d enfer]

You made my point for me there in your own link.

The Euronews article shows there is no correlation between the electoral system and the number of governments. There are always other dominating factors. And there are peculiarities; in France, it is almost atavic to have a government change about every other year. It is a remedy, like purge for Diafoirus.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Rather that than the  marxist/communist agenda of the far left

Yeah! What we need is a good Mc Carthy.

 

[alexc]

Would make  small contrast  to the current state of affairs, right?