covid politics

[fallout]

...is a major way to protect those who can't get the shot.

wait.. I thought the shot was totally safe?

 

[crazydoc]

Apparently you think you are a masterbaiter, but it seems you are just a sad little troll from mommy's basement.

 

[iturnknobs]

wait.. I thought the shot was totally safe?

The percentage is so low for that group it's virtually not worth talking about...but you'll argue it to the point that others think it is...and then don't get the shot. There's a pattern in society. You're part of it.

 

[Brian Roth]

If vaccines are not 10000% safe/effective, let's drop all vax requirements for school kids against polio, mumps, measles, diphtheria....and forget that smallpox vax.

/sarcasm off

 

[scott2000]

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...g-care-as-hospitals-crumple-under-covid-load/

What is hard to understand is if the staffed inpatient beds fluctuate and these shortages are due in part to that.
If there were say, 3800 staffed beds available during their decided peak season, only staffing 3300 beds now would maybe create some extra pressure until they can. And hopefully will soon if the case.

https://healthdata.gov/Hospital/COVID-19-Reported-Patient-Impact-and-Hospital-Capa/g62h-syeh


On a brighter note, FL covid hospitalizations tracking down pretty well. ....

 

[fallout]

Apparently you think you are a masterbaiter, but it seems you are just a sad little troll from mommy's basement.

LOL.. Are you prepubescent? Masterbaiter? Sad little troll? Mommy's basement? Am I hallucinating and this is really reddit's political forums? You'd be in good company there.

The percentage is so low for that group it's virtually not worth talking about...but you'll argue it to the point that others think it is...and then don't get the shot. There's a pattern in society. You're part of it.

Thanks for proving my point (not arguing with you). I'm not saying if the vaccines are safe or not. @crazydoc tried to make an argument that healthy people should get Covid shots 'to protect those who cannot get the shot'. So yea, you may be right that the percentage is low (I'm not sure). That makes crazydocs argument SILLY. That and the fact that Covid shots do not prevent transmission. Those who can not get the shot and are at risk should probably talk to their doctor and figure out a plan of what to do in case they do unfortunately get infected? Ivermectin perhaps?

If vaccines are not 10000% safe/effective, let's drop all vax requirements for school kids against polio, mumps, measles, diphtheria....and forget that smallpox vax.

/sarcasm off

You should educate yourself on how different those vaccines (and diseases) are to Covid shots before the sarcasm. I'm surprised you'd even compare those to Covid shots? Those are VERY different diseases. RNA respiratory viruses (such as Covid and Influenza) mutate MUCH faster compared to polio and smallpox. The rate at which Covid mutates is the reason why the spread can't be stopped with Covid shots. Also, when you get immunity from measles, polio or smallpox you have full protection FOR DECADES and are protected against death FOR LIFE. The argument to mandate Covid shots for children is RIDICULOUS.

"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus," -Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the CDC's director,

Not exactly a polio, smallpox, measles situation...

Just a reminder, I am not anti Covid shots, whatsoever.. I am against MANDATES for Covid shots.

Show me any real world data that shows Covid vaccines are successful in stopping the spread of the virus. You do see what's happening in Israel, no? (spoiler: high vaccination rate did not stop the spread)

 

[JohnRoberts]

Come on kids play nice....
===
Yes Israel is interesting to watch, not interesting in a good way.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Even mandates allow for exceptions...

I see it as a "let's try" opportunity.

It's not certain if it will help in the long. But if we don't, we lose the opportunity.

Same situation with climate change.

Leads some people to doom scenarios. Understandable, as we are in a new millennium and the spleen is even worse than at the beginning of a century.

The alternative is "do nothing and wait for the gay thirties". Not that that period didn't have it's problems, of course.

 

[Script]

Vaccination rate in Israel was 60 percent or so. I wouldn't consider that high.

 

[fallout]

Even mandates allow for exceptions...

I see it as a "let's try" opportunity.

It's not certain if it will help in the long. But if we don't, we lose the opportunity.

Same situation with climate change.

Leads some people to doom scenarios. Understandable, as we are in a new millennium and the spleen is even worse than at the beginning of a century.

The alternative is "do nothing and wait for the gay thirties". Not that that period didn't have it's problems, of course.

An argument can be made for this. I disagree with it but...

Vaccination rate in Israel was 60 percent or so. I wouldn't consider that high.

I've read from a few sources that the number is approx 78% of Israeli's over the age of 12 are vaccinated.

 

[Script]

UK will be interesting to see. Highest now, I think. Portugal also at around 80%. Italy also very high. What do they have in common? Answer: Many bereaved families.

 

[Matador]

Show me any real world data that shows Covid vaccines are successful in stopping the spread of the virus. You do see what's happening in Israel, no? (spoiler: high vaccination rate did not stop the spread)

The only things in life that meet your bar of effectiveness are death and taxes. To point, no vaccine meets your "100% successful" criterion. Polio vaccines are considered 90-100% effective after 4 doses (mandated, mind you). The measles vaccine is quoted as 97% effective (also mandated, think of that!). Smallpox vaccine is listed as 95% effective. The entire point of vaccines is to reduce the R-value below 1 for a population, which means cases are isolated and don't run amuck. COVID vaccines are no different! The strawman you keep erecting is starting to get annoyed.

Vaccines are effective at stopping the spread in EXACTLY the same way as condoms are effective "at stopping" pregnancy and STD's. As in...they are 97% effective. Not a single person says, "Well, I can still get pregnant while using a condom, so that's the point?".

Here are the first 3 studies of vaccinated populations I found which I'm guessing will go unread:

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.31.2100640

Our study showed that the COVID-19 vaccines not only protect the vaccinee against SARS-CoV-2 infection, but also offer protection against transmission to close contacts after completing the full schedule.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.13.21260393v1

Vaccination reduced both the rate of infection with SARS-CoV-2 and transmission to household contacts in Israel.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.

In other words: you can't pass a disease you never caught to someone else.

 

[fallout]

"As the Alpha variant of SARS-CoV-2 dominated during the study period, an important question is to what extent these VET and VE estimates hold in the context of the Delta variant (Pango lineage designation B.1.617.2) which is now dominant in the Netherlands. Also, further research is needed to determine whether the observed differences between the different vaccines are due to the small sample size or have real public health relevance. We will prospectively monitor both VET and VE among household contacts over the next months to address these questions."

Anyway...

"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," Walensky told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death -- they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission." -CDC

FWIW, measles, polio and smallpox vaccines can in no way be compared to the Covid shots.

 

[Matador]

Nobody said they prevent transmission - I told you, the strawman is growing weary.

But I'll play: what is the VET and VES for an unvaccinated control group against a similar sized group of confirmed Delta infected-yet-vaccinated group?

FWIW, measles, polio and smallpox vaccines can in no way be compared to the Covid shots.

Why? Does communicable probability differ in COVID from every other communicable disease that has existed before?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Even mandates allow for exceptions...

I see it as a "let's try" opportunity.

It's not certain if it will help in the long. But if we don't, we lose the opportunity.

Same situation with climate change.

I hope not...

Leads some people to doom scenarios. Understandable, as we are in a new millennium and the spleen is even worse than at the beginning of a century.

The alternative is "do nothing and wait for the gay thirties". Not that that period didn't have it's problems, of course.

It should be no huge surprise to the public health community that covid appears to be following an influenza trajectory. Big Pharma is probably licking their chops over a reliable recurring revenue stream, the holy grail of big medicine. A possible upside is that a combo annual flu/covid booster could reduce flu deaths in some of the same high risk groups.

JR

 

[fallout]

Why? Does communicable probability differ in COVID from every other communicable disease that has existed before?

The genetic drift of the diseases themselves differ and also the speed at which they are able to mutate. This is one of the reasons why the effect of vaccines for measles, polio and smallpox is different (slower genetic drift).

As I mentioned a few times and JR mentioned above, it appears more and more that Covid will probably be controlled by annual (probably more) Covid shots to keep those at risk out of the hospital (hopefully).

The only ones who benefit from mass/continual vaccination is big Pharma and investors. Covid ain't going away.

 

[Matador]

What does speed of mutation have to do with vaccination rate amongst the population? Are you arguing that if nobody was vaccinated against polio, there wouldn't be a high transmission rate because its genomics are more stable? You think that polio disappeared because it didn't mutate as fast as other viruses, and not because the (mandated) vaccination rate for polio amongst children is almost 93%? BTW, the current R-value for polio in the US is about 0.001, which coincidentally is not zero...so polio vaccines don't "stop the spread"?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-14174-2

Vaccination has essentially eradicated poliovirus. Yet, its mutation rate is higher than that of viruses like HIV, for which no effective vaccine exists... Our analysis also indicates that circulating poliovirus strains in unimmunized populations serve as a reservoir that can seed outbreaks in spatio-temporally localized sub-optimally immunized populations.

In other words, populations that aren't vaccinated against polio can seed outbreaks in newer and rarer polio strains in sub-optimally immunized populations (e.g., populations of people located close in distance, or in time).

Can anyone guess on this chart when polio vaccines were mandated for children?

Again: you can't transmit a disease that you never catch.

 

[fallout]

Polio was just about eradicated because of its slow genetic drift, the vaccines were effective and herd immunity was possible.

As I said above, when you get immunity from polio, it lasts for DECADES and prevents death FOR LIFE.

Much different than Covid.

 

[Matador]

Polio vaccines are only 97% effective - if you want to be at all consistent in your reasoning, that means that polio vaccines don't stop the spread.

(In case it isn't clear, I get that no combination of English words will convince you otherwise - however if I can sway one reader then it's time well spent).

 

[fallout]

When you get immunity from polio from the polio vaccine, it lasts for DECADES and prevents death FOR LIFE. Not gonna catch it, not gonna spread it.

Not so with Covid.. This is not hard to understand. The polio vaccines were/are much different than the Covid shots.

If Israel is any indication, it looks like Covid shots lose their effectiveness pretty quickly. One can argue that those vaccinated early in the year, can be deemed 'unvaccinated' at this point. Get ready for endless boosters.