covid politics

[fallout]

What vaccines are mandated for employment in the private sector (healthcare and military excepted)? Obviously, childhood vaccinations are required for school but they actually PREVENT disease for life.

Division?

"We're going to protect vaccinated workers from unvaccinated co-workers" -Dipshit

Now why would you have to protect the vaccinated? Oh right.. Because the shit don't work.

--------

“There was a study that came out of Israel about natural immunity and basically the headline was that natural immunity provides a lot of protection – even better than the vaccines alone,” Gupta said.

“Should they also get the vaccine? How do you make the case to [people with natural immunity]”? Gupta asked Fauci.

“You know, that’s a really good point,” Fauci said. “I don’t have a really firm answer on that.”



Ya can't make this shit up...

 

[JohnRoberts]

The only reason it's politics is because the right has made it so. No one had an issue with vaccine mandates prior to Covid, but the right is leading its lemmings off the cliff while sowing division...just like masks were never an issue for doctors and surgeons and now they are potentially deadly...while no one screamed freedom upon seeing a sign stating "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"...and no service members were up in arms about mandatory vaccines. Too little, too late right-wingers. Deplorable by lack of continuity in arguments.

Perhaps you missed President Biden's speech yesterday.

Politically the right is more interested in the Afghanistan clusterfsk and tomorrow's date (check a calendar). It looks like President Biden would rather talk about anything else. It's almost like the pullout and collapse of Afghanistan was timed to give the Taliban an especially embarrassing opportunity to celebrate their new emirate on 9/11 flying the Taliban flag over the former US embassy. (The Taliban fighters do seem to be dressing better these days.)

Of course opinions vary.

JR

is an adage or rule of thumb that states "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

 

[hodad]

You know, Republicans could talk about 9/11 and Afghanistan if they want--just STFU about the vaccine mandates and blather on and on about Amurrica and Freedom Fries and Forever Wars. It's a simple formula--if that's what they really want, why aren't they doing it?

In Ontario last Friday there were approx. 800 new covid cases in a province of 14 million--and that was up substantially. In my state of 11 million the same day? 12,000 new cases.
So what's the difference? My state is at 50% of all eligible people fully vaccinated. My state's mealymouthed loser Republican governor won't allow local mask mandates, much less enact a statewide one. In Ontario, masks are mandated in indoor public spaces--and 99+% (in my recent experience) follow the rules. In Ontario, over 80% of eligible people are vaccinated.

So who's playing politics with the pandemic? Who's killing people to score points with their craziest voters?

I'm sick and tired of my worthless POS governor and his irresponsible mismanagement of pandemic response, and I'm sick and tired of my state's craziest GOP reps in DC (Marjorie Taylor Greene), who flout mask mandates and promote the most idiotic lies imaginable. Fsck them and their political games. Don't blame Biden, John--blame the craven idiots you share a party affiliation with.

 

[Script]

PREVENT disease

This nails it. Just these words.

The vaccines prevent disease -- they have proven to spare a vast majority of people from severe symptoms and death.

Oh right.. Because the shit don't work.

Wait a second, by "shit" here you meant the vaccines ?

So what are you saying? Vaccines prevent severe illness and death or they don't? Which one is it ?

 

[Matador]

They simultaneously work and don't work: they are Shrodinger's vaccines.

 

[Tubetec]

I dont often disagree with you proufoundly Script , we dont know for certain if the reduced mortality is due to the vacination or the weakening of the virus itself , even the so called 'top experts' wont lay their reputations on the line in that respect either . The vast majority of people are prepared to be guineepigs in this epidemic , mass market vaxing was sold publicly under a false premise , that it prevented re-infection , it simply does not , now the people who took a vax on that basis are trying to defend their position . Those of us in good physical and spiritual shape prevent severe illness and death way more than any pharmaceutical concoction .

 

[shabtek]

indeed all are test rats now
"70-95%" effective or something is what is what it was 'sold publicly' as . that is subject to interpretation

Vaccines prevent severe illness and death or they don't? Which one is it ?

 

[Matador]

in tha that it prevented re-infection , it simply does not , now the people who took a vax on that basis are trying to defend their position .

No vaccine meets this criterion.

 

[crazydoc]

I'll take the CDC's well documented word over all the undocumented anecdotal conspiracy theory bullshit I see, but each to his own.

• More than 600,000 Covid cases from April through mid-July were analyzed and linked to vaccination status.
• Those who were unvaccinated were about 4.5 times more likely to contract the virus, more than 10 times more likely to be hospitalized with the virus, and 11 times more likely to die from the disease.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...from-covid-cdc-says/ar-AAOiNZf?ocid=bingcovid
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm?s_cid=mm7037e1_w

 

[fallout]

This nails it. Just these words.

The vaccines prevent disease -- they have proven to spare a vast majority of people from severe symptoms and death.

It would nail it, if I was talking about the Covid shots but I'm not. LOL. I was saying that the childhood vaccinations required in the US for children to enter school PREVENT diseases FOR LIFE. Their effectiveness is well studied and documented. Much different than Covid shots on all fronts.

Wait a second, by "shit" here you meant the vaccines ?

So what are you saying? Vaccines prevent severe illness and death or they don't? Which one is it ?

I'm saying that the Covid shots do NOT prevent the disease or transmission (this is not disputable, Israel is a perfect example), negating the most important argument for mandates. Whether it's 90% effective at keeping people out of the hospital or preventing severe illness doesnt mean a thing in regards to mandates.

Covid has been around for a while now and there's enough data to understand who is most at risk. Protect those people and lets get on with life. If you want a shot, get a shot. If you don't, don't.

 

[fallout]

I'll take the CDC's well documented word

 

[hodad]

childhood vaccinations required in the US for children to enter school PREVENT diseases FOR LIFE.

This is not true of all vaccines. Tetanus is the most obvious example. A booster shot is recommended every ten years. It's also not uncommon for vaccines to be less than 100% effective. That's why having near-100% vaccine compliance is so important.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I made at least one member angry when started a poll asking people to self report their vaccination status.

Trying to search for "who" isn't vaccinated I find demographic trends strongly minority and lower education levels. I also find some partisan spinners claiming vaccine hesitancy is a republican affectation. I can't read minds like some here think they can.

I very much understand distrust in the government as they routinely flip-flop over advice and even policy.

I may regret asking this, but please share valid reasons to not get vaccinated, besides the obvious reason, doctors advice.

JR

PS; with all these unvaccinated people getting delta variant, doesn't that mean they now have natural immunity (if still alive)?

 

[crazydoc]

I was saying that the childhood vaccinations required in the US for children to enter school PREVENT diseases FOR LIFE. Their effectiveness is well studied and documented.

Completely fabricated bullshit again. I saw several cases myself of measles in previously vaccinated children. Because of outbreaks, it was eventually decided that a booster was needed, which again was not completely effective.

One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.
Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps.

Same deal for chicken pox:
In post-licensure studies, two doses of vaccine were:

• 92% (range 88% to 98%) effective at preventing all varicella

Whether it's 90% effective at keeping people out of the hospital or preventing severe illness doesnt mean a thing in regards to mandates.

Except that it keeps a place open for you in the otherwise overwhelmed hospital so you can get adequate treament for that motor vehicle accident.

Covid has been around for a while now and there's enough data to understand who is most at risk.

Like those young healthy people on ventilators and dying of covid, and the current 26% of covid cases in the pediatric population.

I guess you just make stuff up out of your head, or you're unable to analyze information, or repeat undocumented fabrications you see on social media. My condolences.

 

[crazydoc]

PS; with all these unvaccinated people getting delta variant, doesn't that mean they now have natural immunity (if still alive)?

Yes, as I have mentioned several times in the past, and they should be added to the immunity of the herd. That method of acquiring immunity is very tough on some individuals, and a real drag on the health system, but it looks like that's how it's going to happen. MAGA.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Thanks for keeping it political...
======
I just looked at a chart showing trends wrt ICU and general inpatient capacity. hospitalization trends link

Please interpret the charts yourself. I expect different people may draw different (subjective) conclusions. I see the rising trend from delta variant (I think) and hope I see a flattening or peak in that rise, but it may be too early to make any predictions as respiratory diseases generally increase during colder months.

When looking at hospital capacity keep in mind that hospitals are for profit businesses so we also see a trend in total ICU beds that rose with covid infections and tapered back down with covid trends. At this point in the pandemic it is probably prudent to keep some extra capacity JIC.

Looking at inpatient beds occupied that seems directly modulated downward recently with increasing covid hospitalization.

Lots of moving parts so draw your own conclusions.

JR

 

[scott2000]

Neat chart. Interesting trend...Thanks

FL is actually down around 12500 covid patients as of yesterday so their through Sept 12th may be a bit a bit lower when complete......Unless they know something we don't.....
If that's the case, post the lottery numbers please..

 

[Matador]

It would nail it, if I was talking about the Covid shots but I'm not. LOL. I was saying that the childhood vaccinations required in the US for children to enter school PREVENT diseases FOR LIFE. Their effectiveness is well studied and documented. Much different than Covid shots on all fronts.

You can keep repeating it over and over, but it doesn't transform the statement into truth. Many other vaccines (which you state are for life), either a) require multiple shots taken place over years, or b) require regular boosters in order to maintain protection (TDaP being a common one). Very likely no different from COVID.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about the effect of a vaccine on a population of people, made up of a subset of individuals that have immunity and those that don't (e.g., the shot didn't work, or didn't cause enough of an immune response to grant immunity, even if temporary).

Out of every 100 people, there will be a few people who contract polio, even if they receive all the doses. The only reason they don't is because everyone else they come in contact with is vaccinated. Herd immunity is is an emergent mathematical property of having everyone vaccinated, it's not an inbuilt biological process. It's not because they "stopped the spread", it's that it became so unlikely for two of the exceptions to be in the same place at the same time, along with someone who was a carrier. The only reason that is true is because everyone around them was vaccinated as well.

If you were to plop 1 million fully polio vaccinated people (coincidentally, it requires four shots spread out over 4 to 5 years! What a croc! Big Pharma is at it again!!!) into an area of active polio outbreaks, on average, 10 thousand of them would come down with the sickness (e.g. 'breakthrough' cases) and could spread it to others. If those 10,000 then returned, the effect would be that that outbreak would likely die out, because of the high vaccination rate, it would be extremely unlikely they could congregate enough of the outliers together to spread to enough other people to raise the R-value above 1.

This isn't a property of the polio vaccine: it's JUST MATH. The fact that we may need more boosters doesn't change the underlying fundamentals that a disease cannot spread uncontrolled if everyone is vaccinated (even in the worst case of needing shots every year), unless the effectiveness of the vaccine falls below a critical threshold (somewhere between 70-80% based on most calculations, which differ between crowded cities and rural areas).

 

[scott2000]

unless the effectiveness of the vaccine falls below a critical threshold (somewhere between 70-80% based on most calculations, which differ between crowded cities and rural areas).

Where do flu vaccines fall in this catagory?

In the CDC study posted earlier, they calculated 80% ve during that period from June 20- July 17th...if reading into it right...

 

[Matador]

Where do flu vaccines fall in this catagory?

There are so many flu variants - the flu vaccine is effective against the flu strains that are guessed to be prevalent (but it is just a guess).

Fortunately IFR for flu is vastly less than COVID, so the impacts to the population are far less.