covid politics

[fallout]

I see the goal posts have moved again. So you're saying that the vaccine "used" to stop the spread, but now doesn't?

The goal post has not moved. From what I understand the vaccines were effective at helping to prevent infection of the original strain of Covid. Once Delta surfaced, all bets were off and this is exactly what we are seeing. My understanding is that Covid shots will have to be updated/tweaked at TBD intervals to account for the new variants and such, much like influenza shots.

The current thinking on the Israel results is that Delta is causing a more rapid falloff of the duration of preventing transmission, and it is worrying. Israel was the first country to have widespread vaccinations so they are also the first to experience any time-based drop-off in effectiveness (hence why they are further along with boosters).

The CDC has said, the shots do not prevent the transmission of the Delta variant. I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this before you understand.

There are more recent studies in other countries which counterindicate these results:

I'll give it a read but honestly, send that study to Israel and let them get back to you.

If anything, the requirements of boosters makes mandates make more sense, not less.

LOL.. We'll agree to disagree. Endless shots/boosters? I'll pass.

 

[Matador]

The CDC has said, the shots do not prevent the transmission of the Delta variant. I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this before you understand.

I understand perfectly: there is no vaccine in existence that prevents transmissions.

 

[fallout]

I understand perfectly: there is no vaccine in existence that prevents transmissions.

LOL.. Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Here's an excellent and extremely well researched article. Curious what, if anything you could refute. Warning it's a very long (but educational) read.

https://www.juliusruechel.com/2021/09/the-snake-oil-salesmen-and-covid-zero.html

 

[scott2000]

very long (but educational) read

Fascinating about WW1...
I was confused about a piece of art I recently saw titled WW1 and it makes a little more sense.. A little...lol

 

[Tubetec]

Interesting stat came out in Ireland this morning , 54% of hospitalised cases of covid are in fully vaccinated people.

 

[Script]

Still debating vaccine efficacy ? How about workplaces, no ?

OK, here's the nudge. I'd say, don't like it ? Quit ! For everyone who goes, there should be half a dozen right now waiting to get a job. Cut in quality ? Yeah, maybe, probably, with some dudes even likely, but so what. Make up with a bit of quantity and, as for anything infrastructure, better than handing out money for free for people to do nothing. Looks like it will be a quiet winter for most anyway (lockdowns etc).

Hospitals? Difficult. I'd hire recovered (plus two vax shots) people for their super-immunity, giving them training on the job. That's a once-in-a-hundred-years chance for recovered folks to count money faster than anyone can spell the word h-e-r-d-i-m-m-u... Until then, maybe enjoy Indian summer ; )

---
Meanwhile the UK have published their Covid-19 Autumn and Winter Plan. Looks like they are getting prepared in case it's a 'bumpy' ride. They are pushing their vaccine program with 3rd for risk groups. Several restrictive measures under consideration -- decision will be made according to data.

I said this before: For best data on infection patterns, vaccine effectiveness, secondary infection rates, ICU patients (all including vaxxed versus non-vaxxed) and comparable demographics, a look at British data is worth its while. Their monitoring system, data analysis, studies and generally huge sample surveys are top-notch. (Hope it saved the NHS for good.)

 

[JohnRoberts]

For a little local color on a national news story, an AL man checked into a regional medical center Aug, 23 with "heart problems". The medical center searched three states (43?) hospitals for an intensive cardiac care bed. It turns out he was admitted to Rush hospital in Meridian, MS (200 miles away from him). Where he died Sept 1.

In his obituary his family is asking people to get vaccinated. I don't know why it was on local TV news last night ( I suspect they saw it in the national news). It appears that national news has picked up this story weeks later to scare more people into getting vaxxed.

My neighbor the druggist, who works in Meridian said this morning that the covid surge locally appears to have peaked. Last week he was seeing a steady stream of helicopters transferring patients into local hospitals (there are multiple hospitals in Meridian, used to be more). One of those helicopters may have been carrying the AL man, but his airlift to Meridian was almost 3 weeks ago.

caveat, this covid peaking observation is anecdotal, while the 73 YO heart attack patient is confirmed dead (BTW he was vaccinated). This is consistent with higher excess deaths when hospital capacity is stretched.

JR

 

[crazydoc]

Here's an excellent and extremely well researched article. Curious what, if anything you could refute. Warning it's a very long (but educational) read.

https://www.juliusruechel.com/2021/09/the-snake-oil-salesmen-and-covid-zero.html

Well, of course - covid/pandemic is part of The Great Conspiracy.

Now I understand - no need for me to say any more.

 

[fallout]

Well, of course - covid/pandemic is part of The Great Conspiracy.

Now I understand - no need for me to say any more.

Before being a dickhead, you should probably read the article. lol. I'd be surprised if you didn't agree with a lot of it, if not all. I doubt you'd be able to refute any of the science and history in the article. It has nothing to do about Covid being a 'great conspiracy'.

The article's tone is a little angry but there's a lot of really well researched and educational stuff. I guarantee you'll find some useful information. There's nothing conspiratorial in the article, no pseudoscience. Perhaps you'll gain an understanding where the other half is coming from, if anything.

 

[JohnRoberts]

4. You will find that the members of this community are incredibly courteous and respectful of each other, so please reciprocate those gestures. Leave the Flame-war mentality at another forum. Personal attacks as well as general hateful comments (regarding race, religion, gender, sex, etc...) will not be tolerated.

Consider this a second warning... Do not make comments personal.

JR

 

[Matador]

I doubt you'd be able to refute any of the science and history in the article. It has nothing to do about Covid being a 'great conspiracy'.

It's literally some dudes blog. Maybe it's just PTSD from what I had to go through to get the "Dr" in front of my name, but anything that makes 100's of supposedly factual statements without citing any primary evidence is incredibly suspicious.

And the ones he does cite say different things than what he claims...a case in point:

But smallpox is one of only two viruses (along with rinderpest) that have been eradicated thanks to vaccination. Very few diseases meet the necessary criteria. Eradication is hard and only appropriate for very specific families of viruses.

If you follow the link, the article itself doesn't claim that only very few diseases meet the criterion. In fact, the article says there are other candidates that might be good for vaccines, but the blocks are "operational, not biological" (e.g. security, funding, etc). It also doesn't say that eradication is only appropriate for specific families of viruses.

Here is another grossly misquoted source in his article:

The current crop of COVID vaccines was never designed to provide sterilizing immunity - that's not how they work. They are merely a tool designed to teach the immune system to attack the S-spike protein, thereby priming the immune system to reduce the severity of infection in preparation for your inevitable future encounter with the real virus. They were never capable of preventing infection, nor of preventing spread. They were merely designed to reduce your chance of being hospitalized or dying if you are infected. As former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb, who is on Pfizer’s board, said: "the original premise behind these vaccines were [sic] that they would substantially reduce the risk of death and severe disease and hospitalization. And that was the data that came out of the initial clinical trials.” Every first-year medical student knows that you cannot get herd immunity from a vaccine that does not stop infection.

Let's see what Scott Gottlieb said in full context, following the chain of cites:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-dr-scott-gottlieb-face-the-nation-08-01-2021/

DOCTOR SCOTT GOTTLIEB: That's right. We know that there is more people with this Delta variant who've been vaccinated who are probably spreading the infection, but it's still a very small percentage of people who are becoming infected after vaccination and who then are going on to spread the infection to others. Remember, the original premise behind these vaccines were that they would substantially reduce the risk of death and severe disease and hospitalization. And that was the data that came out of the initial clinical trials. That premise is still fully intact. We still see that these vaccines are doing a very good job preventing symptomatic disease, preventing hospitalization and death. The second premise around these vaccines is that they would reduce the incidence of infection, any infection, including asymptomatic infection, and they can also reduce the risk of transmission. And therefore, they would be an important public health tool at effectively ending the epidemic, the pandemic, because they would prevent people from transmitting the virus. That premise is still intact. But what we see with the Delta variant is it's diminished. There is more evidence that people are likely to spread the Delta variant even after vaccination than they were likely to spread the other variants. But it's still a very small percentage of people.

Isn't that fascinating that he left out that part of what Dr. Gottlieb said in the immediate following sentences?

 

[RSRecords]

my wife is an experienced ICU nurse in TN. If you have any real questions about the state of hospitals in high covid areas, I have boots on the ground insight. Spoiler, it's really bad especially for unvaccinated or immuno-compromised people. Death is not even the worst of it.
Current age limit for ECMO is 35--over 35 you don't qualify. The pre-existing condition/comorbidity thing is much less relevant with Delta. Younger healthier people are dying and being severely disabled.

 

[fallout]

I lost my dear cousin to covid last night. He spent a week in hospital in Cyprus and died alone as his wife was in isolation.
He's the second family member I've lost to covid in the last year, there's nothing at all to "LOL" about regarding this thing mate.

Sorry to hear. Not sure what makes you think no one here lost any loved ones to Covid?

Perhaps you should take my comment in context before assuming I'm laughing at the situation.

..and quite honestly, if I feel like laughing during a conversation.. I'll laugh.

 

[Winston OBoogie]

Sorry to hear. Not sure what makes you think no one here lost any loved ones to Covid?

I did not assume or think that at all. I know differently having spoken to and interacted with lots of members on here.

Perhaps you should take my comment in context before assuming I'm laughing at the situation.

I read the context.
You were laughing at a member here who is an MD, and telling him he's a dickhead...

 

[fallout]

I read the context.
You were laughing at a member here who is an MD, and telling him he's a dickhead...

So what? Have we become that soft?

Crazydoc throws enough insults, I’m sure he can handle himself.

 

[JohnRoberts]

you have both (all) been warned again... stop ad hominem, there is no justification for it

JR

 

[Winston OBoogie]

So what? Have we become that soft?

No we are not soft, but we speak with each other respectfully, and without personal attacks.
You agreed to that when you signed on and became a member here.

If you think that's unreasonable and you want to go around calling folks a dickhead online, then maybe this isn't the community for you.

 

[fallout]

You agreed to that when you signed on and became a member here.

..and so did 'crazydoc'. I fail to see your point?

 

[Tubetec]

I didnt read the entire article Fallout refered to but went about halfway through , for me it definately raises some interesting questions about the approach taken against covid .

Back here in Ireland 'the doctor is always right' mentality is still quite common , the priest and the guard(police) often were given similar unquestioned obedience , it resulted in some of the worst atrocities , including torture rape and murder and unapproved unethical medical experimentation on our most vulnerable .

I think were quite entitled to agree or disagree here , we often do , Ive personally found some of crazy docs outbursts and wishes of death on people who dont happen to concur with his views, very difficult to square off from a man who supposedly upholds the hippocratic oath . I think I did have to withdraw at least one comment to the good doctor and yes I've had one or two warnings over the time myself too , theres an old saying ,play the ball not the man .

Sorry for your loss Winst' , tell us a bit more about his circumstances if you wish , not sure how the rollout of vaccines in Cyprus is progressing.

I believe we might do better to start offering vaccines to people more likely to get serious complications in poorer parts of the planet at this stage , as we know socio-economic conditions are a key factor in the spread of this disease.

 

[fallout]

It's literally some dudes blog.

So what? Attack the author not the content?

If you follow the link, the article itself doesn't claim that only very few diseases meet the criterion. In fact, the article says there are other candidates that might be good for vaccines, but the blocks are "operational, not biological" (e.g. security, funding, etc). It also doesn't say that eradication is only appropriate for specific families of viruses.

I guess you didn't read correctly. The 'operational blocks' was referring to the polio vaccine not other 'candidates' for eradication. The link absolutely supports the article.

Here is another grossly misquoted source in his article:

Isn't that fascinating that he left out that part of what Dr. Gottlieb said in the immediate following sentences?

It isn't really that fascinating considering Dr Gottlieb says, "There is more evidence that people are likely to spread the Delta variant even after vaccination than they were likely to spread the other variants", which basically supports the premise of the entire article..

Anyway.. Let's agree to disagree.