covid politics

[Brian Roth]

I watch this thread just to get an idea of other folks' thoughts...seldom make comments. It is mostly "sane" here on this forum, while I also monitor many other sources as well.

I'm age 67, Mom is 91. We live apart by 250 miles, so we often talk via Ma Bell (yes...she still has the same phone number that I knew as a child). Mom and I have had our vax (Moderna for me, Pfzifer for Mom). She felt safe(ER!) for me to visit after we both of us were both vaxed. We hadn't seen each other in person for well over a year.

Anyway, Mom is totally frustrated by some of her friends who loudly refuse to get the vax (and other health issues). We talk at length on this via Ma Bell.

Here is my breakdown:

1. Antivax folks who proclaim ANY vax is some sort of poison. Qanon groups spew BS that Bill Gates, so called trilateral commission, the Rothchild family, and Soros want to kill off the world's population so they can rule the planet. And lest I forget....having the vax or a vax card is the "mark of the beast" as mentioned in Revelations in the bible. Oh...nano particles in any vax make you magnetic, so that kitchen silverware will stick to your skin. Millions (?) believe this.

2. "YOU can't tell ME what to do!!" people. One of Mom's long-time friends is there.

3. Younger friends with an IQ above room temperature <g>. "It takes years to see if a vax is both safe and effective. This vax was rushed through!" See #1 above since that also mingles into Facebook and Reddit....I don't mess with either.

Tonight, Mom said "Imagine how many people would be crippled if so many people refused to get the polio vax decades ago". Mom still has most of her "wits" at her age!

Bri

 

[scott2000]

lol....
Everyone knows it would be the hamburglars and the millions of racists and their racist cop friends to have the sinister plans. Eugenics was so 1900s anyway... who cares if father Bell was into it...

 

[fallout]

A great summary. Data from the CDC website.



TOTAL CASES (US): 40,048,255
TOTAL DEATHS (US): 643,858

DEATHS BY AGE:

50-64 years: 106,674 (.27% of total cases)
65-74 years: 144,020 (.36% of total cases)
75-84 years: 173,655 (.43% of total cases)
85+ years: 185,188 (.46% of total cases)

TOTAL DEATHS account for 1.6% of total cases.

78.1% of TOTAL DEATHS are over the age of 65.
94.7% of TOTAL DEATHS are over the age of 50.
6% of TOTAL DEATHS are attributed to Covid only.
94% of TOTAL DEATHS have an average of 2.9 co-morbidities (12/6/20)

Data for the younger cases is available but not even worth mentioning.

The fear mongering is out of control.

 

[scott2000]

The fear mongering is out of control.

Maybe not...

https://www.prb.org/resources/u-s-population-is-growing-older/
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ag...-ton-bricks-us-commerce-secretary-2021-07-12/

 

[fallout]

Maybe not...

https://www.prb.org/resources/u-s-population-is-growing-older/
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ag...-ton-bricks-us-commerce-secretary-2021-07-12/

I'm failing to see your point. Are you saying the numbers are what they are because the us population has a decent amount of folks over the age of 65?

 

[hodad]

I'm failing to see your point. Are you saying the numbers are what they are because the us population has a decent amount of folks over the age of 65?

I'm failing to see your point. Is it that folks who work with or come in contact with people over the age of 50 should get vaccinated? Or is it "Screw those old people. They deserve to die!" Is it that younger folks who get covid may well die at a significantly lower rate but may suffer aftereffects of the disease that potentially will last years or even decades, and thus should go ahead and get vaccinated? Or that younger people who get covid are more likely to survive, and the really sick ones will thus linger longer in hospitals, costing vast sums of money and clogging up the healthcare system for others who need help, and so they should get vaccinated?

As far as I can tell your only point has been, "I don't want the shot." And whatever you have to tell yourself to justify that is what you choose to believe. Cherrypicking the science and data, repeating mis- and dis- information, presenting fallacious arguments--it's all good as long as it supports your fervent desire not to get a shot.

 

[fallout]

I'm failing to see your point.

Of course..

Is it that folks who work with or come in contact with people over the age of 50 should get vaccinated?

No.. The vaccine should protect those folks at risk against the 'unvaxed vermin'. Isn't that the point of the vaccine? To keep those at risk out of the hospital because it sure doesnt prevent transmission.

Or is it "Screw those old people. They deserve to die!"

Really? That's idiotic. LOL

As far as I can tell your only point has been, "I don't want the shot."

Well no, I don't want the shot or need the shot at this point. My biggest gripe is mandating the shot. I couldn't care less if someone wants to get the shot voluntarily.

And whatever you have to tell yourself to justify that is what you choose to believe.

Yes, I can form my own opinions.

Cherrypicking the science and data, repeating mis- and dis- information, presenting fallacious arguments--it's all good as long as it supports your fervent desire not to get a shot.

I'm not cherry picking anything. The data is what it is. Not sure what to tell you. Live in fear?

 

[Script]

Not sure what to tell you.

Then why are you here ?

 

[crazydoc]

Then why are you here ?

Because he has no skin in this game, but he likes to troll and tell other people what to do, even though his knowledge is sorely lacking.

 

[fallout]

Then why are you here ?

To complain about vaccine mandates in the workplace. Why are you here? Are you refuting the data I posted?

Because he has no skin in this game, but he likes to troll and tell other people what to do, even though his knowledge is sorely lacking.

Skin in this game? Not even sure what you're on about. If you can show me where at any point I even remotely told anyone what to do, I'd greatly appreciate it. In fact, you'll most likely find that I don't care what anyone does as it's their own personal decision. It seems like reading comprehension is not your strong point. If you want to trade insults, we can do that too.

So let me get this straight.. If my opinion differs from yours, I'm trolling?

 

[Script]

To complain about vaccine mandates in the workplace. Why are you here? Are you refuting the data I posted?

Oh, I see. Now I get the frustration part. Which one ? Workplace I mean.

 

[JohnRoberts]

no don't trade insults, in fact lets avoid getting personal in our discusions about things and stuff...

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

To complain about vaccine mandates in the workplace. Why are you here? Are you refuting the data I posted?

I work around hundreds to thousands of people everyday. Vaccinations reduce infection and spread. Ever hear of Typhoid Mary? The data you posted is accurate, your appreciation of the severity of the situation is not. As I predicted in this very thread, ICUs would be full(and they are). There is not enough space or workers in our healthcare system currently to handle this pandemic when we get surges... primarily caused by unvaccinated people. When this happens, no matter how old or young, healthy or not, you have no safety net when emergencies occur. Encourage everyone to get vaccinated. Wear a mask (in public settings) until the surges subside.

Well no, I don't want the shot or need the shot at this point.

It's not about you. It's about the healthcare workers and current overflow in our hospitals. It's about the kid who gets hit by a car(or the guy from Alabama who died) and gets turned away or "prioritized" in an unfortunate way because YOU are already in an ICU bed. You may not need the shot. Society needs you to get it. Be a patriot. Take one for the team.

 

[crazydoc]

Skin in this game? Not even sure what you're on about.

You have immunity, so any measures taken to protect others, like vaccine or mask mandates, don't matter to you.

If you can show me where at any point I even remotely told anyone what to do, I'd greatly appreciate it. In fact, you'll most likely find that I don't care what anyone does as it's their own personal decision.

My apologies. You haven't told anyone specifically what to do - you've said they can do anything they want to (despite potential untoward effects.)

So let me get this straight.. If my opinion differs from yours, I'm trolling?

No, but I consider the persistent posting of false information to be trolling - why else post it time after time.

Now why would you have to protect the vaccinated? Oh right.. Because the shit don't work.

I'm saying that the Covid shots do NOT prevent the disease or transmission (this is not disputable, Israel is a perfect example), negating the most important argument for mandates.

That and the fact that Covid shots do not prevent transmission.

Some arithmetic:
X number of vaccinated and X number of unvaccinated are exposed to the disease. Of these same size groups, lets say 100 unvaccinated test positive. According to CDC data (I know, you don't believe in their data - not as reliable as social media), about 25 of the vaccinated will contract the virus. If transmission is equal in both groups (which is not a proven fact), the vaccinated will subsequently expose 1/4 the number of people to the disease. So after another itteration, the vaccinated will have exposed 1/16 the number that the unvaccinated have exposed, etc etc

So in fact, vaccination does decrease transmission, quite substantially, even if it were true that the vaccinated positive cases can transmit it at the same rate as the unvaccinated..

 

[fallout]

You have immunity, so any measures taken to protect others, like vaccine or mask mandates, don't matter to you.

Covid most certainly matters to me. Don't assume.

My apologies. You haven't told anyone specifically what to do - you've said they can do anything they want to

This is correct.

No, but I consider the persistent posting of false information to be trolling - why else post it time after time.

Exactly what false info are you referring to? That vaccinated can both catch a spread the virus?

Some arithmetic:
X number of vaccinated and X number of unvaccinated are exposed to the disease. Of these same size groups, lets say 100 unvaccinated test positive. According to CDC data (I know, you don't believe in their data - not as reliable as social media),

I have not seen any conclusive studies on how effective the Covid shots are for preventing infection. Most everything refers to how well they prevent serious illness or hospitalization and yes, by all means get the shot if you're in a high risk group. That's the intention of the shots. From what I understand the CDC stopped tracking non-severe 'breakthrough cases' among the vaccinated sometime this past spring. It's impossible to gauge how effective the shots are in preventing infecting. Keep in mind, when the Covid madness was at it's peak last year, EVERYONE was getting tested at drive up testing sites all across the USA and EVERY single case whether symptomatic or asymptomatic were being tracked as an 'infection'. My estimation is that the vaccine has little effect on infection rates if you were to count EVERY case weather symptomatic or asymptomatic. I see this in real-life as well. Anecdotal to you, very real to me. There's no data to even remotely suggest the vaccines are preventing infection/transmission. Hospitalization? Sure.

The argument of hospitals being overloaded is valid but isn't a reason for forced vaccine mandates. There have been terrible flu seasons that overloaded hospitals in the past.

So in fact, vaccination does decrease transmission, quite substantially

This is not a fact. Again, pay attention to what's going on in Israel. They're already talking about a FOURTH booster shot.

 

[Matador]

I have not seen any conclusive studies on how effective the Covid shots are for preventing infection. Most everything refers to how well they prevent serious illness or hospitalization and yes, by all means get the shot if you're in a high risk group. That's the intention of the shots.

No. If vaccines worked the way you think, then COVID would be running amok amongst the vaccinated at the same rate as unvaccinated and there's no proof this is happening.

Here is at least one study: there are similar studies performed in India and the UK as well.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm

Among unvaccinated participants, 1.38 SARS-CoV-2 infections were confirmed by reverse transcription–polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) per 1,000 person-days.§ In contrast, among fully immunized (≥14 days after second dose) persons, 0.04 infections per 1,000 person-days were reported, and among partially immunized (≥14 days after first dose and before second dose) persons, 0.19 infections per 1,000 person-days were reported. Estimated mRNA vaccine effectiveness for prevention of infection, adjusted for study site, was 90% for full immunization and 80% for partial immunization. These findings indicate that authorized mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are effective for preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection, regardless of symptom status, among working-age adults in real-world conditions. COVID-19 vaccination is recommended for all eligible persons.

Note it doesn't say "recommended for everyone who is at risk".

This was confirmed by RT-PCR, which directly tests to see if there is active virus replication happening in a person (symptomatic or not). It is the clinical definition of a COVID infection (for purposes of this study). You can see that the infection rate plummets down by a factor of almost 35 times amongst the vaccinated compared to their unvaccinated peers. This study is uniquely on point because this was performed against health care workers who were in routine contact with infected individuals, and represents a "worst case" of fairly constant exposure...hence the 35 times reduction should be considered a floor for effectiveness, not a ceiling.

There are also follow-on studies that show a) viral load is reduced in vaccinated individuals, thus further lowering their ability to transmit the disease, b) time time for negative PCR tests was almost 10 days shorter than for an unvaccinated person (again, lowering the probability they can pass the infection on), and c) the total viral exposure that causes an infection is much higher (meaning you need to spend more time in proximity with an infected individual before you have a chance at a breakthrough infection).

This is all a long-winded way of saying: vaccines help stop the spread, period. At risk or not.

 

[fallout]

This is all a long-winded way of saying: vaccines help stop the spread, period. At risk or not.

December 2020-March 2021

This is a short-winded way of saying: this study is useless as it doesn't factor in the 'Delta' variant. The CDC already admitted that it doesn't prevent the transmission of the Delta variant. It can possibly lessen severe symptoms / outcome.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robert...llness-israel-study-suggests/?sh=67c1a6bb584f
Again, I'm all for keeping people out of the hospital but I'm also for keeping people employed if they choose not to get vaccinated for whatever reason.

 

[crazydoc]

This is not a fact. Again, pay attention to what's going on in Israel. They're already talking about a FOURTH booster shot.I

I'm saying that the Covid shots do NOT prevent the disease or transmission (this is not disputable, Israel is a perfect example),

Yeah, the vaccine doesn't work, so I guess the drop in Israel's cases must not be due to the booster.

Coronavirus Infection Rate Drops to Lowest Level in a Month​

By Aryeh Stern

Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:31 am | ז' תשרי תשפ"ב

YERUSHALAYIM-
Figures marking a decrease from the high numbers over the weekend served to quell some concerns that were raised on Sunday, Yisrael Hayom reported.
A total of 7,686 new cases of the coronavirus were diagnosed across Israel Sunday, down from 10,183 new cases reported a day earlier. The percentage of tests returning positive dropped from 6.57% on Shabbos to 5.24% Sunday, marking the lowest level recorded since Aug. 13.
Israel has removed age limitations on the third dose of the vaccine, making it available to all ages. Experts have anticipated a decline in cases with Israel’s third vaccine rollout, and the numbers seem to indicate a trend along that line.



https://hamodia.com/2021/09/13/coronavirus-infection-rate-drops-to-lowest-level-in-a-month/

 

[fallout]

Yeah, the vaccine doesn't work, so I guess the drop in Israel's cases must not be due to the booster.

You looked at the numbers in the article you posted, no? They're talking about a small decrease in numbers over the weekend. Hardly conclusive by any measure . Again, they're talking about a 4th booster shot.

At this point, let's agree to disagree. If you think mandates are a good thing? Then so be it.. I hope you enjoy government overreach.

 

[Matador]

This is a short-winded way of saying: this study is useless as it doesn't factor in the 'Delta' variant.

I see the goal posts have moved again. So you're saying that the vaccine "used" to stop the spread, but now doesn't?

The current thinking on the Israel results is that Delta is causing a more rapid falloff of the duration of preventing transmission, and it is worrying. Israel was the first country to have widespread vaccinations so they are also the first to experience any time-based drop-off in effectiveness (hence why they are further along with boosters).

There are more recent studies in other countries which counterindicate these results:

https://www.ndm.ox.ac.uk/files/coro...ction-survey/finalfinalcombinedve20210816.pdf

The results from this large community surveillance study show that vaccination with two doses of
BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1 still significantly reduces the risk of new [Delta] PCR-positive SARS-CoV-2 infections. However, whereas the two vaccines provided similar benefits when Alpha was dominant, benefits from two ChAdOx1 doses are reduced with Delta more than two BNT162b2 doses, although two ChAdOx1 doses still provide similar protection to that from previous natural infection. Benefits from both vaccines are numerically greater against PCR-positives with versus without self-reported symptoms and high versus low viral burden PCR-positives, but the difference in effectiveness is smaller with Delta for both vaccines.
...
Nevertheless, there may be implications for any policies that assume a low risk of onward transmission from vaccinated individuals (e.g. relating to self-isolation, travel), despite vaccines both still protecting against infection, thereby still reducing transmission overall.

If anything, the requirements of boosters makes mandates make more sense, not less.