Donald trump. what is your take on him?

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JohnRoberts said:
PS: If Bernie's policy had wide appeal he would have done something with his decade being in the senate.  He recently proposed single payer healthcare (again) while ironically his home state (VT) tried to implement a statewide single payer system then abandoned it as too expensive for the state's residents to afford..

Ironically, defense and military spending is 'single payer', and nobody proposes that states be left to implement their own military spending.  I imagine if most states were asked to stockpile their own nuclear arsenals, purchase their own aircraft carriers, and develop and deploy troops to foreign countries, they would also say it was 'too expensive for the state's residents to afford'.
 
If Bernie's policy had wide appeal he would have done something with his decade being in the senate.  He recently proposed single payer healthcare (again) while ironically his home state (VT) tried to implement a statewide single payer system then abandoned it as too expensive for the state's residents to afford..
I don't understand this.
Virtually every country in Europe can afford free healthcare, yet we are told that although the US is the richest country in the world, it's too expensive for them!

DaveP
 
DaveP said:
I don't understand this.
Virtually every country in Europe can afford free healthcare, yet we are told that although the US is the richest country in the world, it's too expensive for them!

DaveP
It's one of those 2 out of 3 problems pick only 2. 

First there is no such thing as "free" healthcare... taxpayers pay for it.

The choices are 1) healthcare for everybody, with 2) no limitations, 3) affordably..    Pick which two you will accept.  I have been looking at other country's systems for years now and pretty much all have some form of rationing since no country can afford to give every citizen every possible operation or treatment. This rationing is not obvious and overt but often shows up as delayed access..  We can work you in for that elective surgery in 6 months (if you are still alive).

I think something like the european model is inevitable because politicians and voters are equally bad at math. I just wish they would hurry up and do that, but in such a way that they don't kill the private health care industry.  Many nations have private health systems operating in parallel with the free public clinics for the wealthy who can't afford to fly to America for treatment. 

Classic anecdote was a liberal warrior on talk TV who happened to experience the UK version of free healthcare first hand. She found a lump in her breast and was told she had to wait a few months for a lumpectomy(?).  She decided to pay a private clinic to find out immediately whether she had breast cancer.  For end of life treatments that keep getting even more expensive as the population keeps getting older too, so more expensive squared. Delayed treatment for older patients is often self-rectifying. We saw examples in the US veterans healthcare system (single payer) where veterans died waiting for appointments.

I am not very optimistic about DC sorting this out neatly, but i do not yet see another nation's system to copy verbatim. Arguing that this is simple is not seeing the whole picture clearly.

JR
 
I'm sorry John, your apocryphal lump anecdote doesn't carry much weight, and neither does your false dichotomy 123 schtick, it's just you and lump lady making claims. I just went through a whole thing on how other countries have better health outcomes and it costs them less, with colored graphs and everything in that other thread. I can repeat it if you want. The only reason we don't have single payer is that blood sucking parasite capitalists like the insurance companies (and their shareholders) want to continue their pay-us-everything-your-family-has-and-more-or-die scheme.

Liberals lie for the insurance companies all the time, Obama schemed up Obamacare with that Jonathan Gruber creep to stave off single payer and save the insurance companies asses by requiring we pay them under penalty of law. Only dems voted for it.

It's not complicated, most of the world has socialized health care, it's just greed, venality and stupidity that we don't. But we will soon. :)
 

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tands said:
We don't really have democracy though, the elites give us the choice between two candidates they pick, that's a sham democracy or worse.

DaveP said:
You seem to be in agreement with Trump voters in that respect, that was their beef.

I'm very relieved Clinton is not resident, also. She was the elite's preferred candidate, and they didn't get what they wanted. :)
 

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How the White House Used Jonathan Gruber’s Work to Orchestrate the Appearance of Broad Consensus, by Jane Hamsher

Up until this point, most of the attention regarding the failure to disclose the connection between Jonathan Gruber and the White House has fallen on Gruber himself.  Far more troubling, however, is the lack of disclosure on the part of the White House, the Senate, the DNC and other Democratic leaders who distributed Gruber’s work and cited it as independent validation of their proposals, orchestrating the appearance of broad consensus when in fact it was all part of the same effort.

The White House is placing a giant collective bet on Gruber’s “assumptions” to justify key portions of the Senate bill, which they allowed people to believe was independent verification.  Now that we know that Gruber’s work was not that of an independent analyst but rather work performed as a contractor to the White House and paid for by taxpayers, it should be made publicly available so others can judge its merits.

Gruber began negotiating a sole-source contract with the Department of Health and Human Services in February of 2009, for which he was ultimately paid $392,600. The contract called for Gruber to use his statistical model for evaluating alternatives “derived from the President’s health reform proposal.” It was not a research grant, but rather a consulting contract to advise the White House Office of Health Reform, headed by Obama’s health care czar, Nancy-Ann DeParle, to “develop proposals” for health care reform.

How did the feedback loop work?  Well, take Gruber’s appearance before the Senate HELP Committee on November 2, 2009, for which he used his microsimulation model to make calculations about small business insurance coverage for his testimony.  On the same day, Gruber released an analysis of the House health care bill, which he sent to Ezra Klein of the Washington Post.  Ezra published an excerpt.

White House blogger Jesse Lee then promoted both Gruber’s Senate testimony and Ezra Klein’s article on the White House blog.  “We thought it would all be a little more open and transparent if we went ahead and published what our focus will be for the day” he said, pointing to Gruber’s “objective analysis.”  The “transparent” part apparently stopped when everyone got to Gruber’s contractual relationship to the White House, which nobody in the three-hit triangle bothered to disclose.

But that was child’s play compared to the effort that went into selling Gruber’s analysis of the bill unveiled by the Senate on Wednesday, November 18.  Two days later on Friday November 20, Gruber published a paper entitled “Impacts of the Senate High Cost Insurance Excise Tax on Wages: Updated,” claiming that the excise tax would result in wage hikes of $234 billion from 2013 through 2019.

And it was off to the races.

The next day on the 21st, Ron Brownstein wrote in the Atlantic about  Gruber’s effusive praise for the cost-cutting measures in the bill:  “Everything is in here….I can’t think of anything I’d do that they are not doing in the bill. You couldn’t have done better than they are doing,” says Gruber.

On Monday the 23rd, the DNC was sending the Brownstein column around in its entirety…one of 71 emails they would send touting Gruber’s work and it was included in OFA’s  Monday Morning News Clips on BarackObama.com.

On Tuesday the 24th, OFA had another post touting the Brownstein article and citing Gruber as a “self-proclaimed skeptic on this stuff.  The DNC sent that around, too.  Mike Allen wrote that Obama had made the Brownstein article “mandatory reading” in the West Wing. TPM had the scoop that Rahm Emanuel told senior staffers “not to come back to the next day’s meeting if they hadn’t read the article.”

David Brooks of the New York Times was not convinced that the Senate bill would be deficit neutral, so Peter Orszag pointed him to the Brownstein’s “insightful article on health care costs” on the White House OMB blog that same day.  It’s hard to believe Orszag didn’t know about Gruber’s contract — a search of the White House visitor logs indicates he met with Gruber on March 26, the day after his HHS contract was first awarded.

Paul Krugman cited Gruber’s glowing analysis in the Brownstein article  — “this is the best effort anyone has made” — as one of the reasons he supported the Senate bill, noting that “the health care economists I respect are seriously impressed by the cost-control measures.” Rahm Emanuel subsequently cited Krugman and Brownstein to Jonathan Weisman of the Wall Street Journal as evidence of a “progressive backlash against the progressive backlash” to dismiss liberal criticism of the bill.  Jeff Bingaman mentioned  the Krugman piece on the floor of the Senate, and entered it into the Congressional Record.

On November 25, Peter Orszag and Nancy-Ann DeParle had a conference call with reporters to tout a letter written by 23 economists — including Gruber — encouraging the President to enact the excise tax and other measures.  Once again, Orszag again invoked the Brownstein article, saying  he “has done the work to understand the issue”:

Orszag seconded that notion, saying, “I agree with Jon Gruber that basically everything that has been put forward in health policy discussions for a decade is in this bill.”

“And then some,” added DeParle.

On November 27, Gruber released another report saying the Senate bill would reduce non-group premiums after the CBO score was released (Gruber is one of the CBO’s academic advisors). Again, Ezra Klein printed excerpts in his Washington Post blog, saying it was “good news for advocates of reform.”

The next day on the 28th, Mike Allen ran it with the headline “MIT analysis backs Obama health plan,” leading readers to believe that Gruber’s work represented outside confirmation.  The DNC didn’t flinch at that description, sending around an email on the 29th with the subject line:  “MIT Analysis backs Obama Health Plan,” and another on the 30th saying “ICYMI” (“In Case You Missed It”), just to be sure you didn’t.  Tom Udall pointed to Gruber’s report, in addition to Ezra and Politico, on his website.

Then HHS included the Politico article in their newsletter, saying “a memo authored by MIT economist Johnathan Gruber” finds the bill will lower non-group premiums.  No mention that he was working for them.

On the 29th Nancy-Ann DeParle, head of the  very White House Office of Health Reform that Gruber was hired to consult for, posted perhaps the most misleading column of all on the White House blog:

    MIT Economist Confirms Senate Health Reform Bill Reduces Costs and Improves Coverage

She identified Gruber as an “MIT Economist who has been closely following the health insurance reform process” who had “issued a compelling new report.”  There was no acknowledgment that her very own White House office had commissioned Gruber’s work.

On November 30th, Krugman wrote about the CBO report, relying on Gruber’s analysis.  He, too, concluded it was “good news for reform advocates.”  That same day, Harry Reid took to the floor of the Senate that same day, saying “just a few days ago an MIT economist–one of the Nation’s foremost economists–a man by the name of Jonathan Gruber, analyzed our bill and concluded it will help Americans pay less and get more.”

Reid read from the piece on the floor of the Senate, saying that it provided substantiation from “who is one of the most respected economists in the world” that the Senate bill would reduce the deficit.  Nancy Pelosi touted “the Gruber analysis”on the Speaker’s website.

On December 3, Kathleen Sebelius released a statement on the “Benefits of Health Insurance Reform for Businesses.”  She substantiated claims made in the statement by citing Gruber’s November 3 testimony before the HELP Committee, and his November 5 paper.  No mention that he was a contractor to HHS.

And on December 12, John McCain referred to “an analysis by MIT economist John Gruber released by the White House this weekend.”

Subsequent to that, a report was issued on December 14 from the Executive Office of the President by the Council of Economic Advisers.  It again invoked Gruber’s November 20 paper as the sole source for the claim that  the excise tax would cause wages to increase:  “Research by Jonathan Gruber finds that even just a single provision – the excise tax – would increase after-tax wages by $234 billion from 2013 to 2019,” it says.

On December 28, Gruber published an Op-Ed in the Washington Post — in which he neglected to mention his contract to consult with the White House on this very issue.  He was asked point-blank if he had any contracts related to the piece for which he was being paid, and he said “no.”  The Post subsequently published a correction.

And just last week, John Kerry — author of the Cadillac Tax provision of the Senate bill — writing in The Hill cited Gruber’s work alone as the authority for the claim that the excise tax would result in increased wages.  Did Kerry, as author of that part of the Senate bill, work with Gruber to craft it too? He doesn’t say.

Gruber validates the argument put forward by the Senate bill’s proponent that it will make health care more affordable — a claim that Marcy Wheeler has made compelling arguments against.  Though Gruber’s analysis has been cited as support that insurance would be affordable, it appears that the individual mandate will impose a financial burden on middle class families that will leave them with no ability to make the co-pays necessary to use the insurance they are forced to buy.  But because Gruber’s work has the authority of an expert from MIT, it has been accepted as independent confirmation that the bill will make things better, not worse.

Gruber is also cited repeatedly to substantiate the claim that the excise tax will result in higher wages after employers reduce benefits, because they’ll pass those savings on to workers. That argument on its face flies in the face of all reason, and nobody has been able to point to a study showing that when health care costs go down, businesses mostly share those savings. Quite the contrary:  In November, a Mercer survey of 465 employer health plan sponsors found that only 16% would pass on any savings to employees.

But Gruber’s representations on that front are continually advanced as one of the primary reasons why Krugman and others support passage of the bill.  As Marcy Wheeler observed, when Jason Fuhrman made that case on the White House blog, Gruber was the sole source supporting that particular claim.  She noted with irony that the administration “can’t muster any support among 3 hand-picked reports for its claim that the excise tax will lead to wage increases.”

But her central point is critical:  most claims that the excise tax will “bend the cost curve” inevitably lead back to Gruber’s analysis..  And now that his ties to the White House have been exposed, he seems to be inserting caveats and backing away from that assertion.

What was Gruber’s role in crafting the Senate bill?  Nobody will say. Is he in effect grading his own work when he praises the bill?  We don’t know.  What we do know is that the White House engaged an expert who was quite likely to reach the conclusions he reached, because he’d been making similar claims for years.  And they worked hard to promote his work as independent validation of their plan, when in fact he was an integral part of it.

Gruber says he believes in transparency, and claims to have a spreadsheet for his simulation model.  On February 27, two days after the presolicitation of his HHS contract began, Gruber participated in an HHS hearing on modeling health insurance data.  According to the transcript, Gruber said:

As much as we can do in groups like this to be transparent about modeling the process, I call my model a black box, but in fact I have now put together a spreadsheet which lays out every single one of the assumptions that is in the model, in a document which describes it all. I think we all need to be as transparent as possible in what is going into the models, so that ultimately folks like ASPE and CBO and others who need to use these to make policy can understand why we are getting different answers and what is going on.

Recently Bill Black, Eliot Spitzer and Frank Partnoy called for the release of AIG emails and internal documents, asserting that the public now owns 80% of the company and should be able to examine them in order to be able to ascertain what happened in the past.  Likewise, now that it is known that Jonathan Gruber was a White House consultant, the assumptions that have been used by the White House to estimate the impact of the health care bill will for decades to come should be made publicly available.

Both Congress and President Obama owe us that kind of transparency before committing to a path that could have serious consequences for the health and prosperity of all Americans.

https://shadowproof.com/2010/01/13/gruber/

https://www.google.com/search?as_q=site%3Ashadowproof.com&as_epq=jonathan+gruber&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=not+filtered+by+license
 

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tands said:
I'm sorry John, your apocryphal lump anecdote doesn't carry much weight, and neither does your false dichotomy 123 schtick, it's just you and lump lady making claims. I just went through a whole thing on how other countries have better health outcomes and it costs them less, with colored graphs and everything in that other thread. I can repeat it if you want. The only reason we don't have single payer is that blood sucking parasite capitalists like the insurance companies (and their shareholders) want to continue their pay-us-everything-your-family-has-and-more-or-die scheme.

Liberals lie for the insurance companies all the time, Obama schemed up Obamacare with that Jonathan Gruber creep to stave off single payer and save the insurance companies asses by requiring we pay them under penalty of law. Only dems voted for it.

It's not complicated, most of the world has socialized health care, it's just greed, venality and stupidity that we don't. But we will soon. :)
If it was so simple explain that to vermont (a very liberal-progressive state).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_health_care_reform

Surely Bernie must be aware of what happened in the state he represents.

wiki said:
In 2011, the Vermont state government enacted a law functionally establishing the first state-level single-payer health care system in the United States. Green Mountain Care, established by the passage of H.202, creates a system in the state where Vermonters receive universal health care coverage as well as technological improvements to the existing system.
On December 17, 2014, Vermont Democrats abandoned their plan for universal health care, citing the taxes required of smaller businesses within the state

One more time for the cheap seats, this is not simple...

JR
 
Canada, UK, are more comparable to the US than Vermont. They seem to be doing fine so I have to assume it has something to do with the size of the state, the fact Vermont is a state, or their implementation. I will study it, it seems like a useful thing to know. Perhaps it was Gruber who ****** that up too.

One of the problems found since the abandonment of the Vermont Health Care initiatives is questionable billing from Jonathan Gruber, who according to CNBC has come into connection[clarification needed] because of the contract.[18] According to a Vermont State report filed by Doug Hoffer,[19] an invoice sent by Gruber to Vermont on December 30, 2014 for $40,000 increased the amount of scrutiny on the billing.
 
Quote from: tands on September 20, 2017, 06:17:18 PM

    Obama schemed up Obamacare with that Jonathan Gruber creep to stave off single payer and save the insurance companies asses by requiring we pay them under penalty of law. Only dems voted for it.

scott2000 said:
I always felt something didn't seem right when the process is seemingly more interested in getting your financials than anything else.

https://twitter.com/splinter_news/status/910896177687793664
 
tands said:
Quote from: tands on September 20, 2017, 06:17:18 PM

    Obama schemed up Obamacare with that Jonathan Gruber creep to stave off single payer and save the insurance companies asses by requiring we pay them under penalty of law. Only dems voted for it.

https://twitter.com/splinter_news/status/910896177687793664

What's the point of linking to someone's irrelevant twitter feed instead of directly to the news article? Same could be said for your last twenty twitter links. I don't see anything to be gained by knowing that some chap is SO!!! OUTRAGED!!1!1!! about this.
 
dmp said:
Unfortunately, there are people who seem to defend (sometimes tacitly) widespread and systemic behavior that is unfair or outright bad by the police force, and even avoid or suppress stories of outrageous bad actions.

To some people one single bad act is perpetrated by a "bad apple". 5 bad acts are 5 bad apples. And so on.

1. Never does it reach the point of "systematic" unless it pertains to an organization the person disagrees with already
2. Never does the person respond to where or how the scale tips from "individual apples" to "systematic"

Plus, the other thing is that if it can be legally institutionalized it's not necessarily a bad thing, like searching people based on race, ethnicity or religious affiliation for example.
 
scott2000 said:
I'm not bad for Nazis being in America...... Nazis are bad...

I've read this same sentiment over and over but, can't seem to understand why it seems that people don't want to except that others here on this forum, although they don't think thought for thought exactly alike, are pretty much after the same goal of peace and happiness for the whole world. Unless I'm just a moron.... But, from what I've read here, that might mean I'm a Nazi or some other crap of useless dribble I've had to try to forget.... Just call me clueless until that gets thrown into the bizarro world that is portions of this thread.

Well, first of all you have to ask yourself just what makes a person conform to a definition. Is it a clear statement affirming the belief system? (probably). Is it less clear statements but that can't be easily dismissed, and there are numerous ones like that? (probably). And so some would argue that there was a point where some people (not here) weren't necessarily white supremacists, but once they managed a sufficient amount of individually "debatable" statements it sure seems to add up to a duck.

Secondly, the issue with what a Nazi is or isn't doesn't stop there. One of the worst things we can do is trivialize the danger that Nazism poses, inherently. It's exactly the same as some religious interpretations or denominations. By trivializing something we invite people to believe it isn't as bad as it really is. So Trump is guilty of this by blaming 'both sides' in his speeches. Those two sides just weren't equal. There was zero reason to make such a statement. And it does lessen the severity of the beliefs those people in the white power movement hold.

It then follows that it may indeed actually promote said beliefs in a deranged way. When the leader of a nation does those things then at the very least it lessens the severity as I said, and at worst it gives white power leaders ammunition to use to energize their base, which is exactly what happened.

So it isn't so much about calling someone a Nazi, it's about calling an enabler of this garbage and enabler of this garbage. When people then step up and defend that person you just have to wonder what kind of person that is in turn.
 
dmp said:
Perhaps when you start thinking that all the mainstream media is biased, it's a good indication that actually you're the one who is biased.
Keeping an eye on the right wing media over the past decade makes this understandable, since it is off the deep end. It has been a well orchestrated propaganda scheme to manipulate the manipulatable with emotion, conspiracy theories, and dog whistle innuendos.
For some reason it seems the right wing media is better at just not being bothered by facts at all (in comparison to the left wing media, which is also emotional, but less likely to be based on outright factual errors).

I'll try to find a video where Chomsky talks about media, it's from the 70's or 80's. He makes some great observations which I think are quite relevant to your comments.
 
Matador said:
It is interesting to see how much people have twisted themselves into knots in order to justify actions...to be honest I liked the previous JR better! :)

Maybe new issues were brought up that were closer to his heart.......
 
DaveP said:
The problem for you Matt is the American Constitution which defends free speech and the President's duty to do the same.

America is riven down the middle and Trump knows this, I would guess this is behind him being on neither extreme.

Here are just two recent examples:

- He said there were nice people among the people walking with torches chanting "Jews will not replace us!".  I'm open to you telling me just how a person marching with that crowd was a very nice person. And if that's not the case I'm open to hearing how those people are essentially the same and deserve no more blame than those who protest against it all....

- He now recently said that people who exercised that right you're talking about should get fired from their companies (NFL teams) and that they were son's of bitches.

Now add his previous statements about anything from Muslims to Mexicans while dragging his feet on condemning other domestic acts of terrorism (or hate-crime, take your pick), and think for a second about just how he is showing this neutrality. Many of us darkies in the US aren't seeing it.
 
I thought the most telling moment of the speech in Alabama was when he "joked" that if he lost the next election he would be moving there. Much earlier in the thread I said look for Trump Tower Branson MO. I wasn't joking. He is persona non grata in NYC. I couldn't see any retailer renting space in Trump Tower NY or people wanting to live there.
 
He said there were nice people among the people walking with torches chanting "Jews will not replace us!".  I'm open to you telling me just how a person marching with that crowd was a very nice person. And if that's not the case I'm open to hearing how those people are essentially the same and deserve no more blame than those who protest against it all....
Just for the record:-
1.  I thought Trump should have condemned outright the Nazi march, especially after the guy drove the car into the crowd.  I think he instead chose to be a President for all Americans, not really the time for that sentiment IMO.

2.  I think the American anthem and flag is very important to the US, especially as you have the military laying down their lives for the country.  Americans often have the flag outside their houses, which only the eccentric might do in Europe.  On that basis, I understand why Trump condemned the protest.  There are some things that are sacrosanct, I guess you would not swear at your Mother for example.

3.  I don't think anyone is going to change how some Americans feel about black people, they learn it from their parents and peers.  Europe never had slavery on its shores (although some controlled slavery overseas) attitudes are different in Europe.
The problem for white racists is they are not exposed to European values because their world is insular.  Protests have little impact when they are hate filled, it's just a Them versus Us situation, it would be better for them to be exposed to the incomprehension of other countries.

DaveP
 
DaveP said:
Just for the record:-
1.  I thought Trump should have condemned outright the Nazi march, especially after the guy drove the car into the crowd.  I think he instead chose to be a President for all Americans, not really the time for that sentiment IMO.

Sorry, but seem to be parsing this a very specific way in order to have your cake. You ignore what he said and focus on what he waited with saying.

- He waited too long to condemn nazis and white supremacists. This you acknowledge.

- He then proceeded to downgrade neo-nazism and white nationalism and anti-semitism by claiming both sides were guilty. This you just ignored.

- He also called some of the protesters in the Jews-Will-Not-Replace-Us-parade "very nice people". This you ignored as well.

It's not just about not saying something right away, it's also about what he did say when he didn't follow a script. Stop ignoring that. Every open-eared Jew and black person heard it, as did the white power movement. Seems only conservatives want to pretend it didn't happen.

DaveP said:
2.  I think the American anthem and flag is very important to the US, especially as you have the military laying down their lives for the country.  Americans often have the flag outside their houses, which only the eccentric might do in Europe.  On that basis, I understand why Trump condemned the protest.

Yeah, the military personnel sacrificed a lot to keep America safe, and just like other conservatives you like to remind people of that for some reason. But you tell me what the value is of protecting freedom of speech if people aren't supposed to exercise that right....? I honestly don't get it. American conservatives just love to point out that people died for our freedoms to criticize the US, meaning we shouldn't criticize the US. So what's the point of that freedom?

The same conservatives are a-ok with taking away individual liberties to protect America, because America is the land of the free.... so, take away freedoms to protect freedoms....


DaveP said:
3.  I don't think anyone is going to change how some Americans feel about black people, they learn it from their parents and peers.  Europe never had slavery on its shores (although some controlled slavery overseas) attitudes are different in Europe.
The problem for white racists is they are not exposed to European values because their world is insular.  Protests have little impact when they are hate filled, it's just a Them versus Us situation, it would be better for them to be exposed to the incomprehension of other countries.

DaveP

I don't know if I think Americans are all that unique as far as this is concerned. People are people. Many are bigots or racists or xenophobes or homophobes etc...
 
Sometimes an image says it better:

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