Major nuclear meltdowns in Japan tonight

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This is the most idiotic way to boil water ever invented by man. We are about to find out why it's not a good idea to have a bunch of spent fuel around, not to mention the cost of maintaining this material for thousands of years.
 
With a half life of 25Kyrs and a microgram toxicity, that means 500K yrs that
1gram of the nastiest waste product plutonium needs to be isolated from the biosphere.

And each reactor producing 100-200kg per year of it.
And 400 or so commercial power reactors worldwide.
Each with a lifespan of 50 or so years.
After which they all need to be buried too.

That's one mighty righteous lot of very deep holes needed.

And a major incident rate of 1 per decade or so.

On the other hand, all those coal plants spewing out noxious chemicals and C02.
Or the messing up of river systems with excessive hydro.

It'll be interesting next 50 years for the future of baseload power.

Soon all households will need to go solar/wind simply to afford to keep the power
on, in despite of the carbon taxation soon to be added to all our lives!

------

What accursed fortune to have earthquake, tsunami, nuclear accident and now freezing weather too.
Makes one think about our accepted realities and how suddenly they can be so easily tossed about by events.


Of course, I hope and pray that the people of Japan can make it thru these awful events.
 
Just read some news that they have hooked up a power line to the plant, and that they hope to get cooling running again in the next few days. I really hope they do. An 8.9 earthquake and a tsunami are terrible enough without throwing a nuclear reactor meltdown into the mix. I can only imagine what those people are going through right now.

Nuclear power is certainly one discovery that has changed the world forever, and not for the better in my opinion.
 
The alternative is a very long answer, but the beginning of the answer must be making far more efficient use of the electricity we generate. The technology for doing that already exists, and in fact is pretty old hat; it's a lot of bits and pieces and small things. Using co-generation that utilizes the "waste heat" from one factory to provide process energy in another, so we don't have to use hundreds of kilowatts for the second factory. More reusables and recyclables -- making stuff like glass and plastics uses a lot of juice. And some plastics need a lot less process energy than others to make -- and do we really need four layers of plastic wrapping a product?

Build buildings better, insulate existing buildings better, and you cut down air conditioning needs, which cuts electricity use. Paint roofs white, you cut down A/C use a lot more.

It's little stuff, but put it together and it could mean needing a lot less new generating capacity. If it's gonna happen, though, it'll take the kind of effort that went into winning World War II -- individual actions, coordinated national actiions, subsidies, the works. We rationed gasoline during WWII -- why? Not because we were short on gasoline, but to cut down on travel because we were seriously short on rubber (at the time, it came from Malaya, which the Japanese had occupied). Indirect action, but it worked.

It can happen, if we want it to happen. And, given the problems with both nuclear and fossil-fueled generation, maybe we need it to happen.

Peace,
Paul
 
ruckus328 said:
Insomniaclown said:
Nuclear power is certainly one discovery that has changed the world forever, and not for the better in my opinion.

Yea, but the alternative is?

That's a good question, and I don't know if I have a good answer. Pstalmer gave a great one though, and I whole heartedly agree. We all need to stop being so dependent on electricity, and we all need to stop using so much of it. We don't think where that electricity is coming from when we turn on the lights, we just know that its there.

The alternatives have been around for a long time, but all have drawbacks. Solar power and wind power are great, but they can't produce enough energy, take up a lot of land, and are not consistent. Hydro messes up the water ways. Coal pollutes and is non renewable. Same with natural gas. Geothermal plants can release dangerous toxins brought up from the earth into the atmosphere, and possibly trigger earthquakes. Burning garbage, well, doesn't sound very efficient or clean to me. Every alternative has a drawback, but I think the drawbacks of nuclear power far outweigh its benefits. I don't know what the best answer is. All I know right now is that if that plant goes, many generations of people will suffer the consequences of that.
 
We waste incredible amounts of energy every day.
Have you ever driven by a refinery at night and seen a flame burning on top of a smokestack? That's natural gas being produced as a by-product of the refining process, and burned off, since it's apparently too much trouble to collect and use in some less wasteful fashion.
  So many more examples could be cited, and pstamler is correct, it's not so much how much energy is being produced, but how it gets used on the consumers end.
  There are countless ways to turn a turbine to produce electricity that don't bite back like nuclear.
  It's ironic that the Japanese have been able to live so long on those islands without turning them into an ecological disaster until recently, and this plant was being run privately, perhaps giving evidence that profit motive and nuclear are not the best companions....
  Unfortunately, it takes accidents like this, the oil spill in the Gulf, and high gas prices for us to ponder what else might be done, instead of the easy thing that's being handed to us on a plate.
   
 
Keeping this on topic, it looks like the Japanese continue to make progress in locking down these reactors while it will takes years to clean up this mess. The fear mongering in the reporting surrounding this has been embarrassing. Yes nuclear materials are dangerous and need to be treated with respect but the Japanese surely know this. The power plant designs despite being 40 YO are working better than old soviet designs, but reveal weaknesses in how we generally deal with nuclear power that deserve inspection.

#1 a serious threat for contamination in the japanese situation is from the storage pools not the active reactor cores. it is natural with a highly regulated dangerous material to ASSume one big pile is better than several small piles, but fissionable material require special considerations. Japan already experienced one accident leading to loss of life (2 people almost 3) in a fuel reprocessing accident that went critical mass.

#2 Utilizing modern technology. In the US we have not progressed much beyond the nuclear plants in place when the three mile island accident occurred.  Utilizing modern technology we can actually reprocess spent fuel in breeder reactors to a) get more usable fuel, and b) leave less and shorter lived waste products. Using molten metal instead of water for the working heat transfer medium avoids or reduces the over pressure and hydrogen explosion risks.

#3 All human activity involves risk... More people have probably been killed installing solar panels than from nuclear plant accidents (a guesstimate but probably true).  We need to use all practical energy sources intelligently and thoughtfully.  We should use the energy we do have responsibly, but i don't see a huge moral issue with wasting energy (but understand some do), mainly an economic issue. Our lack of effective energy policy leaves the OPEC cartel and unfriendly countries in charge of our oil prices. This doesn't seem very wise to me.

We have a number of remedies available to use that seem almost too trivial to list. Solar and wind energy are not credible solutions to have a significant impact on our current imbalance of energy needs vs resources.

One economic point that seem to need clarification is while higher oil prices do improve the business models and economic viability of alternate energy sources, this is not remotely a win-win situation, but a significant win-LOSE situation where the only winners are the purveyors of those alternate energy sources, and everybody else loses BIG. Higher energy prices are unquestionably an economic drag on all business activity and even our personal quality of life. Energy policy that actively promotes, or just unintentionally results in higher energy prices is only helping selected friends, and hurting the entire rest of the population.

JR

PS: I still feel the larger risk surrounding nuclear power is control of fissile material and preventing same from being weaponized. Now that is truly dangerous. A double edged sword with breeder reactors is their utility in making raw material for bombs. There are breeder energy cycles less favorable for bomb making but this too is complicated.
 
There is no shortage of oil now and there hasn't been for a long time. OPEC actually shored up production in Saudi-Arabia to  account for temporary lower yields in recently destabilized regions. There won't be a shortage of oil for decades either. All the commodities are going up again, and like the last time it's mostly speculation, the few experts on the issue not themselves profiteering from it can attest to that.


And again, you have to look at all the costs involved. There's massive disruptions to the birth cycles of animals in the gulf of Mexico now according to recent research for example.

In the US a power plant in california located 1 mile from an earthquake "hotspot" didn't even have an emegency plan for that situation undtil 2003. Regulations were delayed or prevented entirely thanks to lobbying efforts. In the 2008 presidential campaign McCain even said "things like enviromental issues, nuclear safety, blabla".

And don't get me started on the whole "fracking" insanity.

The bottom line is: Technology, markets, finance whatever can work safely, but they need tough regulations and independent oversight to be safe and sustainable. In the current climate of anti-democratic corporate-governmental back-room dealing they are not.


And yes, green energy-independance is possible and it's not nearly as expensive as a lot of highly subsidized follys undertaken in recent decades. And the money to pay for it is there, it just needs to get back in the hands of the people.


As to the people who died because of nuclear accidents: It's tens of thousands for Chernobyl alone. But for coal it's many, many more just for the side effects of exploitation, processing, burning.
 
Although not the Holy Grail, Thorium holds a lot of promises in cleaning up the nuclear industry. Its main drawback is that its cheap, uses waste fuel for fuel, and most countries have stock of it. So there is not a lot of money to be made from its use.
 
josan said:
Although not the Holy Grail, Thorium holds a lot of promises in cleaning up the nuclear industry. Its main drawback is that its cheap, uses waste fuel for fuel, and most countries have stock of it. So there is not a lot of money to be made from its use.

Yes, thorium is fuel of choice for next generation breeder reactors, but this is inside baseball.. Somebody will still make plenty of money, but I just want low cost, clean and safe energy.

JR

 
living sounds said:
There is no shortage of oil now and there hasn't been for a long time. OPEC actually shored up production in Saudi-Arabia to  account for temporary lower yields in recently destabilized regions. There won't be a shortage of oil for decades either. All the commodities are going up again, and like the last time it's mostly speculation, the few experts on the issue not themselves profiteering from it can attest to that.


And again, you have to look at all the costs involved. There's massive disruptions to the birth cycles of animals in the gulf of Mexico now according to recent research for example.

In the US a power plant in california located 1 mile from an earthquake "hotspot" didn't even have an emegency plan for that situation undtil 2003. Regulations were delayed or prevented entirely thanks to lobbying efforts. In the 2008 presidential campaign McCain even said "things like enviromental issues, nuclear safety, blabla".

And don't get me started on the whole "fracking" insanity.

The bottom line is: Technology, markets, finance whatever can work safely, but they need tough regulations and independent oversight to be safe and sustainable. In the current climate of anti-democratic corporate-governmental back-room dealing they are not.


And yes, green energy-independance is possible and it's not nearly as expensive as a lot of highly subsidized follys undertaken in recent decades. And the money to pay for it is there, it just needs to get back in the hands of the people.


As to the people who died because of nuclear accidents: It's tens of thousands for Chernobyl alone. But for coal it's many, many more just for the side effects of exploitation, processing, burning.

I won't get you started on fracking.... and Chernobyl was more like a dirty bomb than a power plant. Lots of other soviet deaths associated with nuclear subs, etc. With design that bad it's almost not an accident, but you are correct. The west has enjoyed a much better record with nuclear plant safety, with only a few deaths. 

I would be interested in hearing your ideas for "green energy-independance". I suspect we might even agree about those subsidized programs.

I'm not expert on the subject, but talking to someone who knows a lot more than I do (not that hard), burning coal cleanly is very hard to accomplish, but this doesn't mean it isn't worth trying. 

Seriously what do you propose as viable technologies to accomplish "green energy independence" for Germany?  Nuclear seems off again on again, for a couple more decades (maybe off again now), but if you have to import nuclear fuel that is not really independent. Using local coal seems hard to ignore, but that isn't very green. The wind blowing and sun shining can't be counted on for reliable energy supply, but over building both to make it when you have it, and store it or shift it around on a smart grid, works as a fractional energy source. 

You guys have been working at this longer and harder than most, so I'm all ears.

JR


 
 
JohnRoberts said:
he west has enjoyed a much better record with nuclear plant safety, with only a few deaths. 

So far. Let's hope it stays that way.

JohnRoberts said:
I would be interested in hearing your ideas for "green energy-independance". I suspect we might even agree about those subsidized programs.

I'm not expert on the subject, but talking to someone who knows a lot more than I do (not that hard), burning coal cleanly is very hard to accomplish, but this doesn't mean it isn't worth trying. 

Seriously what do you propose as viable technologies to accomplish "green energy independence" for Germany?  Nuclear seems off again on again, for a couple more decades (maybe off again now), but if you have to import nuclear fuel that is not really independent. Using local coal seems hard to ignore, but that isn't very green. The wind blowing and sun shining can't be counted on for reliable energy supply, but over building both to make it when you have it, and store it or shift it around on a smart grid, works as a fractional energy source. 

You guys have been working at this longer and harder than most, so I'm all ears.

JR

 


The key is a large smartly-regulated high performance grid and lot's of storage. The wind always blows somewhere, the sun shines most of the time in southern Europe and northern Africa, the tide, biogas, hydroelectricity, geothermics can be relied upon constantly. The other side of the equation is to safe energy, a low-energy house /passive house /zero-energy-house for example isn't unreasonably expensive and will safe money in the long run. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house

We're already at 18 % renewable energy in Germany, now investments need to be made for energy storage and the high performance grid. Technology gets better all the time, there have been recent advancements in solar panels and fuel-producing bacteria etc., green energy is getting cheaper and makes more sense economically all the time.

Now the government may be forced through public pressure to abandon their plans for prolonged nuclear power, and investments in the new technologies seem possible. Energy is expensive here, but part of it is profits pocketed by the large energy providers (whose quasi-monopolies - ironically - were brought upon us by the left leaning government in power in the early 00s).

A huge challenge is the NIMBY (not in my back yard) sentiment, which - again - ironically often comes from the same parties locally who generally support green technology. Sacrifices will have to be made, it's likely to get messy, but with the implications of climate change there isn't a viable alternative in sight. Nuclear fusion isn't much nearer now than it was decades ago.

BTW, Germany does not need to be energy-independent in that 100% of the energy is produced right here, huge solar farms in the Saharan desert (there are concrete plans) could produce a lot of Europes energy and bring prosperity to the region. It needs to be stable politically first, of course.
 
Thank you, this is much more pleasant than arguing about the past.
living sounds said:
The key is a large smartly-regulated high performance grid and lot's of storage. The wind always blows somewhere, the sun shines most of the time in southern Europe and northern Africa, the tide, biogas, hydroelectricity, geothermics can be relied upon constantly. The other side of the equation is to safe energy, a low-energy house /passive house /zero-energy-house for example isn't unreasonably expensive and will safe money in the long run. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house
I am not completely sure how much is involved in a smart grid. It seems we need a smart energy controller where each consumer connects to the grid. 

A lot of the discussion here about grid investment is to connect wind farms or solar farms that are rarely close to populated areas that need to energy, to the consumers at significant distance. We also need to hurry up and perfect superconductors, since you can't just email that electricity from Northern Africa to Europe without losses. Finally this infrastructure need to be paid for by consumers who will not see payback for a very long time if fossil fuels remain inexpensive for decades. I do not appreciate artificially inflating energy prices based on political sentiment. A tax is a tax, only good if government is smarter than the people. I know that isn't true here. 

Also off-peak management has utility to help utilities and consumers... more about that later. 
We're already at 18 % renewable energy in Germany, now investments need to be made for energy storage and the high performance grid. Technology gets better all the time, there have been recent advancements in solar panels and fuel-producing bacteria etc., green energy is getting cheaper and makes more sense economically all the time.
Sometimes it is hard to parse out what is truly economic and what is government picking winners and losers. There was a lot of activity in bio fuels converting things like animal fats to fuel, ignoring that those fats were not discarded before but used in other products (like cosmetics for one). A sub economy has grown up around repurposed used cooking fats, that get the additional economic boost of escaping pump taxes. it is worth reflecting that the original diesel motors were designed to run on simple fuels. 

Ethanol from sugar cane may make sense in some regions while ethanol from corn does not. Ethanol from cellulose sounds better yet but in many cases this cellulose was not completely waste but plowed under to be recycled into next years growth. Removing this means the land will require more fertilizer to maintain the same productive output. Harvesting cellulose from trees and the like, get into economy of scale issues since it is inefficient to just harvest yard waste, so we are back to growing stuff to extract energy from that growth.

We need to take a sharp pencil to all of these programs. Of course the natural resources within a given nations boundaries often plays into the decision making, and there are potential political negatives associated with importing energy.

In an ideal world (not ours) energy should always be drawn from the most economic sources wherever they are, and exchanged for fair value in goods from countries that are better equipped to manufacture. A quick glimpse at the news suggest how far we are from that ideal world, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. 
Now the government may be forced through public pressure to abandon their plans for prolonged nuclear power, and investments in the new technologies seem possible. Energy is expensive here, but part of it is profits pocketed by the large energy providers (whose quasi-monopolies - ironically - were brought upon us by the left leaning government in power in the early 00s).
In Europe I would also be a little concerned about over reliance on Soviet gas supplies. While they only make money when they sell it to you, they are not beyond pressing whatever advantage may arise.

Nuclear energy using modern breeder reactors are almost renewable, but not quite. I expect them to be phased out and shut down too, when they get eclipsed by something cheaper, cleaner, better, (like Mr. Fusion) but more like 100 years from now than 25-50. Of course I won't be around to be proved wrong. 
A huge challenge is the NIMBY (not in my back yard) sentiment, which - again - ironically often comes from the same parties locally who generally support green technology. Sacrifices will have to be made, it's likely to get messy, but with the implications of climate change there isn't a viable alternative in sight. Nuclear fusion isn't much nearer now than it was decades ago.
I am not completely sold with the premise of climate change being of man's making, or that current temperature trends would ever notice our meddling with carbon emissions. Getting energy policy right has more than enough reasons to get it right, and it doesn't need any more advocacy.

In a twist on NIMBY, I think the future direction of smarter energy use will focus even more on smart homes. Not just passive systems to waste less energy, but why shouldn't every exposed roof be a solar collector? It seems there is merit in developing short term (daily) and longer term (seasonal) energy storage for individual homes. In the short term power could be pulled from central distribution off peak, and perhaps pumped back on, to meet peak demand if needed. Seasonal storage could hold the heat we often have too much of in the summer, to warm us in the winter months.  Of course there are two problems with this. #1 I don't know how to do it yet, and #2 even when we do figure it out it will take several decades to propagate these changes into our installed base of housing. The good news is energy is still relatively cheap right now, and free market forces can drive these changes that make both dollars and sense, when entrepreneurs think them up.

BTW, Germany does not need to be energy-independent in that 100% of the energy is produced right here, huge solar farms in the Saharan desert (there are concrete plans) could produce a lot of Europes energy and bring prosperity to the region. It needs to be stable politically first, of course.

I'm not sure how much long term prosperity solar farms will bring to the Sahara, but at least it should provide some much needed shade. 8) Also, unless we solve the transmission loss issues there will be some advantage to locate huge energy consuming industries (like steel or aluminum makers) closer to cheap energy sources. However right now solar electricity isn't all that cheap, but it should follow the cost trend it is on (getting cheaper) for a while. There is still room for improvement in solar technology, but many are just waiting and expecting fossil fuels to get more expensive. They will, eventually, but that could also be much later as extraction and exploration technology are also improving dramatically. 

JR
 
"In Europe I would also be a little concerned about over reliance on Soviet gas supplies. While they only make money when they sell it to you, they are not beyond pressing whatever advantage may arise." JR

 
With all due respect, the Soviets have been gone a while now :)

 But I'm enjoying this discussion. Glad you mentioned used cooking oil. I really would like to find an old diesel car and experiment with this. There are recipes all over the net, and I believe this is part of the solution. Waiting for governments (who have become simply the front-end of most major corporations) to take care of these problems is a waste of time.
 Nothing will happen until the average human in his garage gets frustrated with energy prices, and starts to use mass  transit, ride his/her bike, make his/her own solar hot water system, converts their car to natural gas (relatively easy to do), etc..
  Sure you can still take the SUV out when you want to carry some groceries home from the store, or take the dirt bikes out to tear up some desert, but otherwise, maybe the hybrid?
  We are, after all, the consumer, and eventually decide the fate of all new technologies. Remember when gas got so high in the US that people drove less than they had in decades?----suddenly, oil wasn't so valuable any more...and the price went down.
  Just sitting here watching the slightly radioactive rain......
 
tchgtr said:
"In Europe I would also be a little concerned about over reliance on Soviet gas supplies. While they only make money when they sell it to you, they are not beyond pressing whatever advantage may arise." JR

 
With all due respect, the Soviets have been gone a while now :)
Use whatever name you prefer, I do not find them trustworthy business partners. They are working the energy angle for national advantage, but so does everybody else who can. It is their respect for contract law I question.
 But I'm enjoying this discussion. Glad you mentioned used cooking oil. I really would like to find an old diesel car and experiment with this. There are recipes all over the net, and I believe this is part of the solution. Waiting for governments (who have become simply the front-end of most major corporations) to take care of these problems is a waste of time.
That donkey may be out of the barn already... before you buy a diesel car, ask your neighborhood fry shop what happens to their waste oil now. Unlike in the past where they might have paid to have this hauled of, I suspect there is more competition for it now as more valuable commodity.  An interesting side effect is your ride may smell like your favorite fast food place.
 Nothing will happen until the average human in his garage gets frustrated with energy prices, and starts to use mass  transit, ride his/her bike, make his/her own solar hot water system, converts their car to natural gas (relatively easy to do), etc..
I believe new energy entrepreneurs can make a difference if the government just gets out of the way, and stops picking their own group of winners. It makes me sick every time they divert tax dollars to buy some old car plant to support another electric vehicle that wouldn't happen if left to private funding. Of course that old car plant often comes with a bunch of idled union jobs that get rescued too. Not literally a quid pro quo, but far from free market behavior where capital flows toward the best return and therefore best utilization for economic growth.   
  Sure you can still take the SUV out when you want to carry some groceries home from the store, or take the dirt bikes out to tear up some desert, but otherwise, maybe the hybrid?
  We are, after all, the consumer, and eventually decide the fate of all new technologies. Remember when gas got so high in the US that people drove less than they had in decades?----suddenly, oil wasn't so valuable any more...and the price went down.
  Just sitting here watching the slightly radioactive rain......
;D  I hear geiger counter sales went through the roof in Lala land. I thought it never rained in southern california, or so the song goes. I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, the radioactive poo getting out so far is pretty short lived stuff... so will dissipate relatively quickly. You probably have a higher health risk from being outdoors in Socal when it isn't raining.

Yes, free markets will react to energy prices... if prices go too high people use less and buy more efficient cars (demand destruction), and oil companies invest in extracting more oil (when the government lets them) creating more supply, that should moderate prices. But this only works in markets allowed to respond freely. The evil speculators, if current prices are not a true reflection of future expectations will shoot themselves in the foot as they trigger more unneeded supply development and demand destruction (they hope to sell that oil to somebody else for even more money in the future, not less).  I personally don't think these prices are a complete bubble, while higher than they should be due to disturbing trends in the middle east, that could get even worse. Gaddafi is not going to leave much standing intact on his way down (while no-fly interdiction may be able to prevent a Kuwait style scorched earth). If the west was as self interested as so many suggest, we would be helping Gaddafi maintain control and keep pumping that sweet light, but supporting him does not seem moral. He has made it difficult to even look the other way.   

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
Thank you, this is much more pleasant than arguing about the past.

Thank you, too. I agree.

Sometimes it is hard to parse out what is truly economic and what is government picking winners and losers. There was a lot of activity in bio fuels converting things like animal fats to fuel, ignoring that those fats were not discarded before but used in other products (like cosmetics for one). A sub economy has grown up around repurposed used cooking fats, that get the additional economic boost of escaping pump taxes. it is worth reflecting that the original diesel motors were designed to run on simple fuels.   

Ethanol from sugar cane may make sense in some regions while ethanol from corn does not. Ethanol from cellulose sounds better yet but in many cases this cellulose was not completely waste but plowed under to be recycled into next years growth. Removing this means the land will require more fertilizer to maintain the same productive output. Harvesting cellulose from trees and the like, get into economy of scale issues since it is inefficient to just harvest yard waste, so we are back to growing stuff to extract energy from that growth.

We need to take a sharp pencil to all of these programs. Of course the natural resources within a given nations boundaries often plays into the decision making, and there are potential political negatives associated with importing energy.


I'm not a big fan of ethanol production from food sources, not only because of the obvious moral implications, but due to its ecological disadvantages according to several scientific reviews of the method. Cellulose - it appears there are certain fast-growing plants ideally suited for this, but yes, it all takes a lot of land it seems. The genetically engineered fuel-producing bacteria seems to make more sense IF it can be done economically and scaled up sufficiently.


In an ideal world (not ours) energy should always be drawn from the most economic sources wherever they are, and exchanged for fair value in goods from countries that are better equipped to manufacture. A quick glimpse at the news suggest how far we are from that ideal world, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. 

The Sahara would be ideal, but there are vast deserts in Spain for example, and lot's of windy areas all over Europe.

In Europe I would also be a little concerned about over reliance on Soviet gas supplies. While they only make money when they sell it to you, they are not beyond pressing whatever advantage may arise.

Yes, no more Soviets for 20 years now. ;-) But I'm not comfortable with the fact that we rely on so much gas from (at best) semi-democratic countries.

I am not completely sold with the premise of climate change being of man's making, or that current temperature trends would ever notice our meddling with carbon emissions. Getting energy policy right has more than enough reasons to get it right, and it doesn't need any more advocacy.

Well, there IS a scientific consensus. It might be too late already, north pole ice melting has accelerated alarmingly lately.

In a twist on NIMBY, I think the future direction of smarter energy use will focus even more on smart homes. Not just passive systems to waste less energy, but why shouldn't every exposed roof be a solar collector? It seems there is merit in developing short term (daily) and longer term (seasonal) energy storage for individual homes. In the short term power could be pulled from central distribution off peak, and perhaps pumped back on, to meet peak demand if needed. Seasonal storage could hold the heat we often have too much of in the summer, to warm us in the winter months.  Of course there are two problems with this. #1 I don't know how to do it yet, and #2 even when we do figure it out it will take several decades to propagate these changes into our installed base of housing. The good news is energy is still relatively cheap right now, and free market forces can drive these changes that make both dollars and sense, when entrepreneurs think them up.

I like the idea of solar panels on every roof, one way to even out the peaks could be to add a hydrogen producing and storing (there are more advanced ways to do this safely availible soon) facility in the basement.  It might even be possible to get off the grid most of the time in a passive house, at least in the southern regions.

I'm not sure how much long term prosperity solar farms will bring to the Sahara, but at least it should provide some much needed shade. 8) Also, unless we solve the transmission loss issues there will be some advantage to locate huge energy consuming industries (like steel or aluminum makers) closer to cheap energy sources. However right now solar electricity isn't all that cheap, but it should follow the cost trend it is on (getting cheaper) for a while. There is still room for improvement in solar technology, but many are just waiting and expecting fossil fuels to get more expensive. They will, eventually, but that could also be much later as extraction and exploration technology are also improving dramatically. 

Solar energy doesn't have to come from expensive solar panels. Mirrors heating up water to drive turbines can suffice, especially given the availible space in the huge deserts. There are ultra-thin (one layer of atoms is enough) superconductors only requiring liquid hydrogen for cooling, there might be a way. The currently contemplated scenario relies on rather conventional high voltage transfer, with losses of 25% per 10.000 kilometers.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec

 
JohnRoberts said:
I believe new energy entrepreneurs can make a difference if the government just gets out of the way, and stops picking their own group of winners. It makes me sick every time they divert tax dollars to buy some old car plant to support another electric vehicle that wouldn't happen if left to private funding. Of course that old car plant often comes with a bunch of idled union jobs that get rescued too. Not literally a quid pro quo, but far from free market behavior where capital flows toward the best return and therefore best utilization for economic growth.   

Now I'm forced to (sort of) disagree again. ;-) Easily the worst example of the (US) government picking winners was during the height of the financial crisis, it's truly astonishing with what Hank Paulson got away there. This should put the tea party on the barricades, especially considering the long-term consequences of the back-room deals, it can only be called socialism - for certain Wall Street banks- and a free market for everyone else.

The auto industry requiring aid by the governenment had a lot to do with their longstanding mismanagement (adherance to the quarterly shareholder value principle as opposed to long-term investments in R&D) and the effects of the economic crisis, which cannot be blamed on union workers at all. The government stepping in to safe a private company is far from ideal, but it would have made the crisis far worse not to do so.
I don't see a problem with providing incentives and making up rules every company has to comply with in order to reach important long-term goals. Business is just not very likely to do these things entirely on their own.

Yes, free markets will react to energy prices... if prices go too high people use less and buy more efficient cars (demand destruction), and oil companies invest in extracting more oil (when the government lets them) creating more supply, that should moderate prices. But this only works in markets allowed to respond freely. The evil speculators, if current prices are not a true reflection of future expectations will shoot themselves in the foot as they trigger more unneeded supply development and demand destruction (they hope to sell that oil to somebody else for even more money in the future, not less).  I personally don't think these prices are a complete bubble, while higher than they should be due to disturbing trends in the middle east, that could get even worse. Gaddafi is not going to leave much standing intact on his way down (while no-fly interdiction may be able to prevent a Kuwait style scorched earth). If the west was as self interested as so many suggest, we would be helping Gaddafi maintain control and keep pumping that sweet light, but supporting him does not seem moral. He has made it difficult to even look the other way.   

From 2003 to 2008 speculative money in commodities rose by a factor of 25. Yes, 25 times more within 5 years, from 13 billion to 325 (not exactly, but close). Here's a recent analysis on the current bubble, and an outlook on the dire consequences after its inevitable implosion:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/257278-in-the-shadows-of-the-commodity-bubble-a-normal-correction-doesn-t-seem-possible

Also in 2008 OPEC was selling their oil for around 45 $, while speculation drove up the price to 150 $. There is a solution to this, the question remains if the Obama administration will act and name a tough regulator for the job when the appointment is due in a few weeks.

As for the investors shooting themselves in the foot - yes, but this is the kind of ponzi-scheme finance where the clever guys trick the not-so-clever ones into making bad choices. That's how so many pension funds lost a lot of money. Often the government is then forced to step in, adding to the debt, which in turn can be conveniently used to dismantle unions and even justify outragous overreach like the bill recently passed in Wisconsin (the whole principle is called "shock doctrine" politics).
 

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