MBHO CK12 Capsule--KA1000N and KA1100?

[Recording Engineer]

Are you sure the KA1000 can be used as a CK12?

If you read this AKG CK12 Capsules Vs. MBHO/Haun CK12-Copies: Pics as of 2007, they’re exactly the same. If they still are produced the same way (probably are), then yes, it can be used as a CK12… I seem to recall the Pape C12 used the Haun when not going with a vintage CK12; which is what I searched for to find that link.

 

[C12VR]

If you read this AKG CK12 Capsules Vs. MBHO/Haun CK12-Copies: Pics as of 2007, they’re exactly the same. If they still are produced the same way (probably are), then yes, it can be used as a CK12… I seem to recall the Pape C12 did when not going with a vintage CK12; which is what I searched for to find that link.

Thanks so much! this is exactly what I needed.
One more question, though--it appears that the mounting scheme is different than traditional ck12 capsules, which have holes drilled for the mounting screws on both backplates, whereas here there seems to be only one side drilled, and at a wider interval at that. How could I go about mounting this in an apex 460?

 

[Purplenoise]

(..you are aware that Tim can dial-in to any version that you desire, within the CK12-family? It's just that if his commercial customers desire some specific version as reference, those become most common in the wild. I'm not much for big 6KHz either, but some US manufacturers really like and lust after this..)

Yes I am. I contacted him about sending the capsule back to tune it a little darker but he seemed not very willing to do it. He said something about shipping and customs being very expensive for something like this if I remember correctly.
I think I might have insulted him by asking haha…he is very proud of his capsule…and he should be, it’s an awesome capsule. It’s just not for me.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Yes I am. I contacted him about sending the capsule back to tune it a little darker but he seemed not very willing to do it. He said something about shipping and customs being very expensive for something like this if I remember correctly.
I think I might have insulted him by asking haha…he is very proud of his capsule…and he should be, it’s an awesome capsule. It’s just not for me.

I think he just doesn’t have time anymore… It seemed that way when I bought my 3 and 2 back in 2014 and 2016 respectively. I’d imagine it’s been much more insane the past number years.

 

[Purplenoise]

I think he just doesn’t have time anymore… It seemed that way when I bought my 3 and 2 back in 2014 and 2016 respectively. I’d imagine it’s been much more insane the past number years.

Yeah that’s what I think too. I am glad for him, he is a nice guy and very knowledgeable. He deserves a successful business

 

[OPR]

If you really can get for $495, grab it; especially since it’s exactly what you want as stock, since your pinnacle is out of reach; a custom one from him at that.

Alternatively, I know Beesneez customizes, but he definitely has a cue. He’ll definitely get to it though, eventually. I bet OPR does custom-tuning as well.

Yes I also do custom tunings for my Ck12 capsule. I can make them bright and scooped or smooth airy with fuller mids. There are so many useful tuning options with the ck12 design and all have their merits. It really just depends on what the end user is after and or their personal experience with the various tuning points of original brass ck12 capsules.

 

[kingkorg]

There have been some improvements in machining and new available materials recently, pretty sure I could get a three chamber CK12 down to only a few more parts than a k87 If I really sat down and tried. I think probably anyone who's worked on them could, they just don't, for any number of reasons.

Haven't Austian Audio done just this with their OC818 capsules? Idk, just asking, they claim they have.

 

[C12VR]

Haven't Austian Audio done just this with their OC818 capsules? Idk, just asking, they claim they have.

their response curves are bizarre--they seem to be the only source suggesting that the original capsules have a pronounced 5k presence peak. Since the AKG c12 is a flat amplifier, and the published responses are all flat through that range, doesn't it then follow that the capsule is supposed to have a neutral response there? And from the sound clips I've heard their mics don't really sound that good, imho. Certainly nothing like a C12.

 

[soliloqueen]

their response curves are bizarre--they seem to be the only source suggesting that the original capsules have a pronounced 5k presence peak. Since the AKG c12 is a flat amplifier, and the published responses are all flat through that range, doesn't it then follow that the capsule is supposed to have a neutral response there? And from the sound clips I've heard their mics don't really sound that good, imho. Certainly nothing like a C12.

maybe ck12 CAN have a big peak at 5-6khz, OR it can have a big whump through the lows. depends on the space between the backplates. i recall one of tim's capsules was measured here and it had the whump through the low mids but no peak at 5k

in fact, the yellow curve here on AA's site looks exactly like the measurement that was posted somewhere of Tim's capsule, so maybe it's a compromise/matter of taste? the ck12's proximity behavior is very multifaceted, so this also likely has a lot to do with distance.


what this unexpected corroboration does tell us though is that tim's ck12 is, indeed, 100% accurate, and that's impressive!

 

[C12VR]

maybe ck12 CAN have a big peak at 5-6khz, OR it can have a big whump through the lows. depends on the space between the backplates. i recall one of tim's capsules was measured here and it had the whump through the low mids but no peak at 5k

in fact, the yellow curve here on AA's site looks exactly like the measurement that was posted somewhere of Tim's capsule, so maybe it's a compromise/matter of taste? the ck12's proximity behavior is very multifaceted, so this also likely has a lot to do with distance.
View attachment 100920

what this unexpected corroboration does tell us though is that tim's ck12 is, indeed, 100% accurate, and that's impressive!

But it evidently was not intended by the original AKG designers to have that bump at 5k, otherwise they would have published a FR chart with that type of response. Granted, those graphs are very smoothed, but I have seen one that even has a dip at 5k in cardioid. Just because it can have that response doesn't mean it is accurate to our perception of a CK12 sound. If it was, then maybe we wouldn't make such a fuss about those cheap k87s with almost the same type of response.

EDIT---it looks like FR of mics in actual use seem to have at least a few DB of 5k boost before the sharp bump in the treble. Perhaps the flat graphs were a bit of marketing propaganda on the part of AKG to make their mics seem more accurate.

 

[soliloqueen]

I have seen one that even has a dip at 5k in cardioid.

Like Tim's tuning and the yellow line on that chart. That's exactly what I mean. "Tuned" seems to be just their opinion on what the best way to do it is.

Also yeah, FR graphs for mics are mostly lies, that's just kind of an industry thing.

 

[C12VR]

Like Tim's tuning and the yellow line on that chart. That's exactly what I mean. "Tuned" seems to be just their opinion on what the best way to do it is.

Also yeah, FR graphs for mics are mostly lies, that's just kind of an industry thing.

In terms of sonic character, then, the CK12 can be a lot closer to the oft-maligned uncorrected k87 than we would like to admit. Of course, rejection in cardioid and proximity effect are more pronounced, but the response is a little shocking, to be honest. I wonder what percentage of genuine CK12s in use approach the response of the the yellow line vs the green. Also, is it possible to achieve a flat 5k without that huge dip in the upper midrange/hyped low mids? It seems there should be a middle ground here.

 

[C12VR]

there must be, unless Fox audio is lying about this graph with the Tim Campbell CT12:

sure, it's smoothed but there is far less of a bump at 5k, with a very flat midrange response.
Also, excuse my ignorance, I am an enthusiast whose worst subject in school was Physics, haha.
It seems that the response curves from Austrian Audio may be a way of justifying their sonic preferences regarding the CK12, rather than a completely thorough and transparent analysis of the capsule.

 

[kingkorg]

Remember you are looking at measurements of capsules within body. No CK12 style capsule i've ever measured on it's own has that 5k peak. The HF boost is even, very linear and predictable. However irregularities with headbasket create a dip somewhere above 5k which creates illusion of that individual 5k peak. That Fox Audio graph actually shows gentle dip between 5k and 9k. I'm quite sure the HF boost would be linear otherwise. The similar issue is present in oc818, only this dip comes from mediocre cap on the top of that mic. They adressed the reflections comming from under the capsule, but not from the above.

CK12 is very different from the k67. The shape of the HF boost is very different when compared side by side measured under same conditions. When EQ is used especially broad, Pultec style that difference becomes even more obvious. K67 rolls off steeper. CK12 has usually more hf content above say 13k.

That Fox audio mic has a custom variant ordered from Tim, it doesn't represent typical response of Tim's capsule. The one i have is not even close for example.

Comparing frequency responses coming from different sources is almost meaningless. The variables are simply too large. Even calibration mics used to compensate speaker error vary quite a bit depending on standards, and how they are calibrated in the first place.

 

[soliloqueen]

the acoustics of the 818 do seem like a mess. that was the first thing i mentioned originally, but then i thought of some other things that made me think "well maybe..."

 

[C12VR]

the acoustics of the 818 do seem like a mess. that was the first thing i mentioned originally, but then i thought of some other things that made me think "well maybe..."

I was literally jumping for joy when I first saw it, then I heard it....

 

[C12VR]

Remember you are looking at measurements of capsules within body. No CK12 style capsule i've ever measured on it's own has that 5k peak. The HF boost is even, very linear and predictable. However irregularities with headbasket create a dip somewhere above 5k which creates illusion of that individual 5k peak. That Fox Audio graph actually shows gentle dip between 5k and 9k. I'm quite sure the HF boost would be linear otherwise. The similar issue is present in oc818, only this dip comes from mediocre cap on the top of that mic. They adressed the reflections comming from under the capsule, but not from the above.

CK12 is very different from the k67. The shape of the HF boost is very different when compared side by side measured under same conditions. When EQ is used especially broad, Pultec style that difference becomes even more obvious. K67 rolls off steeper. CK12 has usually more hf content above say 13k.

That Fox audio mic has a custom variant ordered from Tim, it doesn't represent typical response of Tim's capsule. The one i have is not even close for example.

Comparing frequency responses coming from different sources is almost meaningless. The variables are simply too large. Even calibration mics used to compensate speaker error vary quite a bit depending on standards, and how they are calibrated in the first place.

Thanks kingkorg.
what, in your experience, is the typical response of a Tim Campbell CT12? Can't seem to find any measurements.

 

[kingkorg]

It is close to the green line of the AA graph posted by Soliloqueen above. Again without the dip in the high end caused by the surroundings. That graph also shows the 180° response which peaks above 10k. K67 has that peak way lower, and rolls off again above that. Which points to quite different off axis sound between the two types. Very obvious when used as room/oh mics. If you are Jeff Porcaro and use Elams for tom mics, it could make a world of difference.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Remember you are looking at measurements of capsules within body.

Yes, this was my thought too, as I was reading through just now.

 

[Recording Engineer]

the acoustics of the 818 do seem like a mess. that was the first thing i mentioned originally, but then i thought of some other things that made me think "well maybe..."

I was literally jumping for joy when I first saw it, then I heard it....

The studio I work out of has a pair. In omni very close to a guitar cabinet, a rhodes, or a leslie, I’m actually very impressed!