L251 Capsule - anyone use one? Also CK12 options in general.

[Tim Campbell]

I think you will find almost unanimous agreement on this forum that sound clips are almost unusable for critical assessment. You can literally find a clip of any product sounding bad if that is your only goal.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Do you guys actually want me to lock this thread..?

if so keep doing what you're doing.

JR

 

[Accelerator]

@Tim Campbell

I’m sorry that I have to interrupt you Tim, but here Brian Fox of Fox Audio Research in his article about yours CT12 Capsule claims that the RK-12 Capsule sound more “vintage” than yours and as he wrote about the RK-12 Capsule:

“We find it still sounds great but gives you considerable savings if you haven't got the extra money to spare.”

If you want someone to blame about the public stamp of “sub lows and peaky highs”, Brian Fox of Fox Audio Research and his Measurement is the man that nail it for you CT12 Capsule…

CT12 Capsule Review

https://foxaudioresearch.ca/CT12.htm

 

[TLRT]

So, has anyone used an L251?

I tried in a client's mic, but not impressed. many times you have to modify the circuits when changing the capsule,as the various ck12 capsules sounds very different(even vintage AKG's). I have NOS ck12 capsules, remake capsules, vintage AKG mics etc to compare.

 

[Tim Campbell]

@Tim Campbell

I’m sorry that I have to interrupt you Tim, but here Brian Fox of Fox Audio Research in his article about yours CT12 Capsule claims that the RK-12 Capsule sound more “vintage” than yours and as he wrote about the RK-12 Capsule:

“We find it still sounds great but gives you considerable savings if you haven't got the extra money to spare.”

If you want someone to blame about the public stamp of “sub lows and peaky highs”, Brian Fox of Fox Audio Research and his Measurement is the man that nail it for you CT12 Capsule…

CT12 Capsule Review

https://foxaudioresearch.ca/CT12.htm

Brian hasn't owned or used a capsule of mine in more than 10 years since I stopped selling to him so this review is at least that old.. He makes money from the RK12. I have sold more than 4000 capsules. You can find detractors among that many people for any product. Reading Brian's review it seems very positive

 

[Barry Hufker]

I believe Mr. Fox has left the business. He hasn't posted anything microphone related on F*B*k since 2016...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Business people sometimes cannot differentiate between criticism of their SKUs and personal attacks, maybe try being a little less personal with product criticism.

JR

 

[kingkorg]

@Tim Campbell

I’m sorry that I have to interrupt you Tim, but here Brian Fox of Fox Audio Research in his article about yours CT12 Capsule claims that the RK-12 Capsule sound more “vintage” than yours and as he wrote about the RK-12 Capsule:

“We find it still sounds great but gives you considerable savings if you haven't got the extra money to spare.”

If you want someone to blame about the public stamp of “sub lows and peaky highs”, Brian Fox of Fox Audio Research and his Measurement is the man that nail it for you CT12 Capsule…

CT12 Capsule Review

https://foxaudioresearch.ca/CT12.htm

I am not trying to defend Tim here, but simply spread the facts about CK12 not many are aware of.

CK12 can sound modern, vintage, dark, bright, however you like. However what makes a good CK12 is following the principle described in AKG pattent. The unique way it forms patterns, how it "handles" the spacial field surrounding it. Some call this 3D. RK-12 can't be right, even though it can sound almost identical in certain conditions. Like dead room, 0° on axis, 20cm from the mic. RK12 follows different principles AKG improved upon with CK12. It's not art, it's laws of physics.

CK12 has superior 180° rejection, F8 and omni sound nothing like other capsules. Regardless of it's absolute 0° response.

Brian Fox knew nothing about intricacies of capsule construction at the time, nor did he claim to. Brian Fox did write he had ordered differently, custom tuned CK12 from Tim.

To expand on something @garp touched upon in another thread. I am not saying 180° is crucial in every situation, however 180° response determines how the capsule behaves on 0°. So it is a great indicator of what and how capsule renders 3d field from every angle of incidence.

Master Guru @ricardo know a thing or two about this.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

This capsule was on the upright bass at the Jazz at Vienne festival in front of 3000 people, i had nothing than compliments for the sound (also for the piano with Arienne's K47) by lot of ingeneers and musicians !

You may know very well that the ingredients in getting a good sound is 80% the operator, 20% the gear.
It just shows you are good at extracting what's good and minimizing what's bad.

 

[garp]

That's partialy right, if the gear is totally f%§cked up , you can't fix anything ! Concerning the brass CK12 i've spent my whole carrier frustated to barely had the chance to try an exceptionnal C12 or C414 or elam 251, they were all out of specs, noisy, intermittent, humming etc ... and therefore i made another choice to print safely, so this quest for a ck12 resurection is something that a lot of engineers are waiting for an end !

 

[abbey road d enfer]

That's partialy right, if the gear is totally f%§cked up , you can't fix anything !

I've never been confronted with "totally f'ed up" gear., although I've been in dubious places.
At least in the western world, gear is pretty decent, to the point that I consider anyone not capable to do a good job to be a fraud. I've seen a few.

so this quest for a ck12 resurection is something that a lot of engineers are waiting for an end !

Certainly, however, due to the fact that no golden sample is known to exist, there'll always be debates of which is more correct than another.

 

[garp]

That video of Porcaro at Bill Schnee's studios showing elam's on every part of the drum kit let me speechless ! Bill has such a collection of Elam's he must have many golden samples amongst them for sure.

 

[Paul W]

That video of Porcaro at Bill Schnee's studios showing elam's on every part of the drum kit let me speechless ! Bill has such a collection of Elam's he must have many golden samples amongst them for sure.

I think that's missing the point that if you have many "golden samples" and they vary, you don't actually have a golden sample, i.e., a single definitive standard of what CK12s should sound like. (Or even what brass CK12s should sound like, never mind later versions.)

For antique mics it's generally not clear which extant samples (if any) sound more like the mics originally sounded, or were meant to sound.

 

[HerbertR]

That video of Porcaro at Bill Schnee's studios showing elam's on every part of the drum kit let me speechless ! Bill has such a collection of Elam's he must have many golden samples amongst them for sure.

I mentioned it a few weeks ago: this session with these tons of 251 in the setup is unbelievably noisy and can be heard on every 50 euro smartphone speaker... Sorry, but I had to say it again. Like picking up your kids from school with a tractor....

 

[tonycamp]

The "holy grail" C12 or 251 is internet nonsense IME, if of the handful of components employed to build a mic have a 20% tolerance/variance in values(not including the psu components), that means the mathematical variance of component combinations are almost infinite compared to the so called "identical" unit right next to it, so what i'm saying is there are no 2 mics sounding exactly the same, I have 2 C12's and one is better than the other, same with my 2 elams, i have 4 rev D 1176's that sound nothing like each other, sheeet mon, every channel strip in my console sounds different to the "identical" strip sitting right next to it, the "golden" or "holy grail" claim is mostly nonsense and better left to the purple site, build or find a mic that gives you what you think you want(which is also a moving target for most), odds are it won't come cheap in effort or $ unless you are very lucky

 

[tonycamp]

I've got no connection to @Tim Campbell other than we are both old school Gdiy members and guys who couldn't pick each other out of a police line up
I don't really understand this whole dive bomb on tim by a few here, it's been passive/ mostly aggressive on multiple threads now, myself and a bunch more qualified guys know what they get with his capsules and thats why I own 5 of them residing in assorted diy and branded mics in my locker housing more than 40+ keepers, over 20 years i've tried all the available C12 offerings cheap to expensive, i'm going to be ordering a 6th capsule from tim for a new point to point C12 build i'm wanting to do because i know it will work as i expect.
I understand the need for him to defend his product here and other places as the internet warriors can be as brutal as they are empty of experience, but tim has a long track record of success that he doesn't t need to defend as far as I am concerned, any serious diy builder, elam or c12 owner interested in a serious capsule or replacement, already knows or will read enough to find out what a bunch of us already experienced, the remaining can go down the very worn path to buy a bunch of sweater wearing hooded future door stops to find out what a bunch of us experienced the hard and expensive way, it aint easy to build these or everyone would

Here's a pic of my door stop lesson learned hype capsule grave yard

 

[Accelerator]

Brian hasn't owned or used a capsule of mine in more than 10 years since I stopped selling to him so this review is at least that old..

Brian’s review about your CT-12 Capsule stays on in his blog no matter if Brian hasn't owned or used a capsule of yours in more than 10 years, since you stopped selling to him your CT-12 Capsule…

He makes money from the RK12.

As I clearly understand by yours phrase:
“He makes money from the RK12.”
It’s seems to me and to everyone out there that you means that every businessman / businesswoman out there he / she has his / her personal “agenda” for making money about promoting and selling product(s) and services for his / her own interest for his/her profits…

I have sold more than 4000 capsules.

I already know that you are the very famous and successful producer of the CT-12 capsule, no - matter if I haven’t had the availability to buy one of your CT-12 capsule by you, as you have decide that your CT-12 capsules to be an OEM product for big companies / factories and no to the DIY’s community…

You can find detractors among that many people for any product.

As I wrote it before to you:

“If you have to consider it for just one moment, these over-ultra-high prices by the Lawson Co. for these Lawson capsules and the Un-availability for someone out there (including me or everybody else…) to get capsules direct by You, by MBHO – Haun, by Heiserman etc… is the “Grease” for making this Chin-o-Canadian Copy-cut “machine” to “work” well, for promoting and selling their products… “

So my “criticism” it is not about your CT-12 capsule as a product, no – matter if it is a good one for a '60's AKG-Telefunken ELA-M251 or for an AKG C-24 but not “my cup of tea” as I will have to preferred the MBHO – Haun capsule for this ‘50’s Flat-Shallow Dish “vibe” of early ‘50’s AKG C-12s and the AKG-Siemens SM-203s microphones, but for the Un-availability for someone out there in this DIY Community (including me or everybody else…) to get capsules direct by You, by MBHO – Haun, by Heiserman etc…

 

[kingkorg]

The "holy grail" C12 or 251 is internet nonsense IME,

It is, but yet it isn't.

If you have a collection of these lying around, run a studio in say Nashville, and have couple of first league artists whom swear their vocal sounds the way it does because that holy grail mic.

Having in mind how insecure every artist is, needles to say, they believe this them selves. Voila, now you can rent your studio with all this magical gear, rent mics, have legitimate business.

Inhouse engineer will of course get you the same result with readily available gear, but you don't want that info out.

I can't believe how down to earth this guy at Abbey is about the mics. No drama, no funky atributes, no mystique. There doesn't have to be, ARS doesn't need this.

That video of Porcaro at Bill Schnee's studios showing elam's on every part of the drum kit let me speechless ! Bill has such a collection of Elam's he must have many golden samples amongst them for sure.

Straight from the horse's mouth. And some technical info about the particular mics used. Starts at 1:30:57.

 

[Tim Campbell]

Accelerator I am just not getting your point. Brian praises my work repeatedly in the review you post but my capsule has changed a lot since that review as I have stated over the past 20 years. Whenever I can improve my capsule I do. I believe I produce the highest quality CK12 capsule you can purchase. When that article was written I had already been producing capsules for many years and many of the manufacturers that produce CK12's now were not even producing capsules.
When people have requested that I make a capsule brighter or darker I have gladly done so at my own cost. If people have had mechanical problems I have repaired or replaced them at no cost or for the cost of shipping if they caused the damage themselves. There are many members here who can attest to this. In every instance I have tried to do what I could to insure my customers got the capsule they desired. The negative criticisms of my work come almost exclusively from people who if they purchased a capsule and were not satisfied NEVER contacted me. Let me repeat that - the people making the loudest noises about problems with my capsules have NEVER even bothered to contact me and instead used it as a soapbox for their own agenda.

If you and others are simply venting your frustration because you cannot purchase my capsule please stop. That really isn't a worthy topic for such a great forum. All this public handwringing isn't changing anything. I may even be able to sell some of my capsule by the end of the year but it will probably be in very limited quantities.

There are so many manufacturers of this capsule right now that no one has to do without. Haun will gladly sell you a capsule, they are not cheap. Josephson will gladly sell you a capsule, they are even higher priced. OPR, Ben Sneesby, Lawson, Telefunken, will all sell you capsules. Buy some or buy these chinese capsules please.

 

[terry setter]

Here's a pic of my door stop lesson learned hype capsule grave yard

Here's just one of mine. It's an M7 from a Gefell UM70. It cost A LOT, and I did the damage all by myself.

I'd love to see pics of what other DIY'ers have in their "failed experiments" drawer!