boji
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Lovely!
Neve 80 series Console Build
- Thread starter remsouille
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remsouille
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- Oct 15, 2012
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So I spent the last two months working 70 hours a week on that bloody thing... Boy, what a trip!
But hey, here it is, in its natural environment:
As you can see there are many things left to do. I'm missing 6 input modules which I should get in the next few weeks (I have two more on my bench that should be installed within days).
I'm also obviously missing the arm-rest which will be installed next week, along with some of the 3mm aluminium bars that separate the penthouse panels top and bottom and the bent aluminium plates that will cover the front of the desk, under the faders. Those are all being built and should be installed within the next couple of weeks.
There is an empty space above the bus amp section that will get a reverb return switch bank, and above that, a pair of EMI TG 12412 EQ inserted in an M/S matrix and a pair of TG 12413 Limiters. This is all in the works and should be finalized in the next few months.
About what I've been doing, now
I built all 15 bus amps ( 8 main busses, 2 monitor, 2 cue, 2 rev and 1 solo). Busses 1 and 2 are plain 1272s with original LO1166 transformers. Busses 3 to 8 are 1272s as well but the insert return comes back into the module to switches feeding bus 1 and 2 and the solo bus. This is a work in progress, as right now the feeds are sourced from 10K:600 transformers located after the insert return, so my feed level is -8dB... which means I'm going to have to build more amps.
The 2 monitor busses (aka tape return busses), which also have feeds to busses 1, 2 and solo, don't have this problem, as the feeds are taken from the unbalanced output of the amp (didn't need inserts on those).
This is what those hybrid amp/routing modules look like:
As you can see, I'm missing the volume pot/fader on those. I just haven't found a 25mm shaft 5K log pot that I like yet, so the amps are just maxed out at the moment.
All my busses have various numbers of feeds, so I ended up terminating them so they would all have an impedance of 340 ohms, this way they would all have the same noise floor. 340 ohms is a good bus impedance, with good speed/distortion compromise.
I have meters hooked up to busses 1 and 2 permanently, and auxiliary meters that can monitor the rest of the busses via 2 Elma 5 position switches. And good old HAL9000 is here to freak out everybody in the room and also serves as a solo indicator ( the eye turns off when a solo switch is engaged).
Here's the simple yet great monitor section (the front panel is being built at the moment):
It's very simple, a 6 position input selector Elma switch (ext, cue, rev, bus 1-2, Mon 1-2, 2T)go into the solo relays, into a pair of 10K600 transformers, into a pair of relays that switch in 10k resistors for dim, into a pair of relays for mute, into the 47 step attenuator and to the speaker outputs. The DIM and MUTE relays are commanded by the two big EAO switches between the input and the attenuator switches.
What I like about this monitor section is that it's totally passive, thus I can monitor in the control room even when the console is off (the DIM and MUTE buttons do need power to feed the relays, but I hardly use them anyway).
The input selector switch also feeds the JLM headphone amp (knob on the right) which is built but not installed yet, and the studio speaker outputs, through the Studio follow monitor switch (green one on the left), another pair of 10K:600 transformers and the 10K volume knob on the left.
I'll try to snap a picture of the wiring when I get a minute!
This is the talkback panel (panel being built as well):
The far left switch is the talkback to cue switch. It feeds both cue busses. Those old Ericsson switches are really nice, they are momentary on one side and latching on the other, with a 4PDT switch for each position. That means you can't really use both positions for the same function though, as one side would remain closed as the other opens, so I use this one to activate a relay to feed the talkback to the cue busses ( The AKG D558 talkback mic is amplified by a JLM Talkback amp). The second from left switch sends the talkback signal to the studio speakers and is inserted between the follow monitor switch and the 10K:600 transformers, so it overrides any program you would send to the studio.
The third (green) switch is not wired yet( soon ), it is the studio talkback switch. It will feed the solo bus in the momentary position and the 2 monitor (tape return) busses in the latching position. The REC function on the tape machine remote will activate a relay that will turn off the studio talkback to monitor busses feeds. This way you can hear what's going on in the room up to the moment you hit REC. I'm quite proud of this one .
The far right (red) switch will activate a cue light in the room.
Here is the distribution panel, built in the same fashion as on original neve boards:
The Main left distribution block is hooked up to a 12amp International Power supply. It feeds all the audio modules with 2,5mm2 wire. Note the 3 twisted blue wires, those feed the B- 0V copper bar.
The right block is feeding all the relays, bulbs, leds as well as the talkback amps. It is temporarily hooked up to the main distribution block as I'm waiting for the accessory 5 amp PSU to be delivered. The center Amphenol plug is for the +/-28V psu for the EMI modules.
Every single audio connection to the outer world is done with XLR plugs.
I couldn't be happier to have made this choice, as it makes troubleshooting, interfacing and overall visualization so much easier! This allows the inside of the frame to be super super clean and not so crowded.
The bulk of the thing has been operational for a couple of weeks now, and i've already run a couple of easy sessions with it. So I guess at this point everybody really wants to know how it sounds, right?
Well, it does sound great but I won't get too hyperbolic about it. It is a life changer for many reasons, many of which are down to ergonomics (like having a proper tape return section), having everything at hand and not needing outboard pres anymore. I've had a couple of 1073 eqs at hand for years, but I never really got to know the eq as well as I have in the couple of weeks, having it default on every channel (well, I only have 8 at the moment but i've only been doing 8 track sessions so far).
As you all know, a studio is a system, and a console ain't no magic bullet. I already had a great console before this one and I was already tracking through 1073s, so the sound of my studio hasn't changed dramatically just by turning the thing on. Or maybe it is just too early to tell. Probably so. It's just that i seem to get the results I want much faster, and that mostly comes down to ergonomics (and having all those stages to saturate certainly helps a bit).
That being said, I did an experiment this morning.
I made a rough 6 channel mix of a project I'm working on in Logic, bounced it ITB and then split the 6 channels to 6 inputs in the console, faders at 0, so the mix would be exactly the same, with added Neve summing.
This is just 1 track of drums (I record my drums to 1 track ), bass, stereo room mics and two guitars. To sum up the architecture, all tracks go each through one 1073, one routing module, the bus and the 1272 bus amp. That's 3 input transformers (all OEP transformers), two output transformers (bass and drum channels have marinair LO1166s in their 1073s, the 2 1272 do too, all 4 other channels have Carnhills in the 1073s) and 6 neve gain stages.
There are 4 passes, all I'll tell you is that one of them in ITB. They're very short clips, to make ABing fast and effective. I also gave them random names, or everyone would just like "A" or "1" better haha.
Here's the link, can't wait to read your guesses
https://we.tl/t-XvnZiHIVil
But hey, here it is, in its natural environment:
As you can see there are many things left to do. I'm missing 6 input modules which I should get in the next few weeks (I have two more on my bench that should be installed within days).
I'm also obviously missing the arm-rest which will be installed next week, along with some of the 3mm aluminium bars that separate the penthouse panels top and bottom and the bent aluminium plates that will cover the front of the desk, under the faders. Those are all being built and should be installed within the next couple of weeks.
There is an empty space above the bus amp section that will get a reverb return switch bank, and above that, a pair of EMI TG 12412 EQ inserted in an M/S matrix and a pair of TG 12413 Limiters. This is all in the works and should be finalized in the next few months.
About what I've been doing, now
I built all 15 bus amps ( 8 main busses, 2 monitor, 2 cue, 2 rev and 1 solo). Busses 1 and 2 are plain 1272s with original LO1166 transformers. Busses 3 to 8 are 1272s as well but the insert return comes back into the module to switches feeding bus 1 and 2 and the solo bus. This is a work in progress, as right now the feeds are sourced from 10K:600 transformers located after the insert return, so my feed level is -8dB... which means I'm going to have to build more amps.
The 2 monitor busses (aka tape return busses), which also have feeds to busses 1, 2 and solo, don't have this problem, as the feeds are taken from the unbalanced output of the amp (didn't need inserts on those).
This is what those hybrid amp/routing modules look like:
As you can see, I'm missing the volume pot/fader on those. I just haven't found a 25mm shaft 5K log pot that I like yet, so the amps are just maxed out at the moment.
All my busses have various numbers of feeds, so I ended up terminating them so they would all have an impedance of 340 ohms, this way they would all have the same noise floor. 340 ohms is a good bus impedance, with good speed/distortion compromise.
I have meters hooked up to busses 1 and 2 permanently, and auxiliary meters that can monitor the rest of the busses via 2 Elma 5 position switches. And good old HAL9000 is here to freak out everybody in the room and also serves as a solo indicator ( the eye turns off when a solo switch is engaged).
Here's the simple yet great monitor section (the front panel is being built at the moment):
It's very simple, a 6 position input selector Elma switch (ext, cue, rev, bus 1-2, Mon 1-2, 2T)go into the solo relays, into a pair of 10K600 transformers, into a pair of relays that switch in 10k resistors for dim, into a pair of relays for mute, into the 47 step attenuator and to the speaker outputs. The DIM and MUTE relays are commanded by the two big EAO switches between the input and the attenuator switches.
What I like about this monitor section is that it's totally passive, thus I can monitor in the control room even when the console is off (the DIM and MUTE buttons do need power to feed the relays, but I hardly use them anyway).
The input selector switch also feeds the JLM headphone amp (knob on the right) which is built but not installed yet, and the studio speaker outputs, through the Studio follow monitor switch (green one on the left), another pair of 10K:600 transformers and the 10K volume knob on the left.
I'll try to snap a picture of the wiring when I get a minute!
This is the talkback panel (panel being built as well):
The far left switch is the talkback to cue switch. It feeds both cue busses. Those old Ericsson switches are really nice, they are momentary on one side and latching on the other, with a 4PDT switch for each position. That means you can't really use both positions for the same function though, as one side would remain closed as the other opens, so I use this one to activate a relay to feed the talkback to the cue busses ( The AKG D558 talkback mic is amplified by a JLM Talkback amp). The second from left switch sends the talkback signal to the studio speakers and is inserted between the follow monitor switch and the 10K:600 transformers, so it overrides any program you would send to the studio.
The third (green) switch is not wired yet( soon
), it is the studio talkback switch. It will feed the solo bus in the momentary position and the 2 monitor (tape return) busses in the latching position. The REC function on the tape machine remote will activate a relay that will turn off the studio talkback to monitor busses feeds. This way you can hear what's going on in the room up to the moment you hit REC. I'm quite proud of this one .The far right (red) switch will activate a cue light in the room.
Here is the distribution panel, built in the same fashion as on original neve boards:
The Main left distribution block is hooked up to a 12amp International Power supply. It feeds all the audio modules with 2,5mm2 wire. Note the 3 twisted blue wires, those feed the B- 0V copper bar.
The right block is feeding all the relays, bulbs, leds as well as the talkback amps. It is temporarily hooked up to the main distribution block as I'm waiting for the accessory 5 amp PSU to be delivered. The center Amphenol plug is for the +/-28V psu for the EMI modules.
Every single audio connection to the outer world is done with XLR plugs.
I couldn't be happier to have made this choice, as it makes troubleshooting, interfacing and overall visualization so much easier! This allows the inside of the frame to be super super clean and not so crowded.
The bulk of the thing has been operational for a couple of weeks now, and i've already run a couple of easy sessions with it. So I guess at this point everybody really wants to know how it sounds, right?
Well, it does sound great but I won't get too hyperbolic about it. It is a life changer for many reasons, many of which are down to ergonomics (like having a proper tape return section), having everything at hand and not needing outboard pres anymore. I've had a couple of 1073 eqs at hand for years, but I never really got to know the eq as well as I have in the couple of weeks, having it default on every channel (well, I only have 8 at the moment but i've only been doing 8 track sessions so far).
As you all know, a studio is a system, and a console ain't no magic bullet. I already had a great console before this one and I was already tracking through 1073s, so the sound of my studio hasn't changed dramatically just by turning the thing on. Or maybe it is just too early to tell. Probably so. It's just that i seem to get the results I want much faster, and that mostly comes down to ergonomics (and having all those stages to saturate certainly helps a bit).
That being said, I did an experiment this morning.
I made a rough 6 channel mix of a project I'm working on in Logic, bounced it ITB and then split the 6 channels to 6 inputs in the console, faders at 0, so the mix would be exactly the same, with added Neve summing.
This is just 1 track of drums (I record my drums to 1 track
), bass, stereo room mics and two guitars. To sum up the architecture, all tracks go each through one 1073, one routing module, the bus and the 1272 bus amp. That's 3 input transformers (all OEP transformers), two output transformers (bass and drum channels have marinair LO1166s in their 1073s, the 2 1272 do too, all 4 other channels have Carnhills in the 1073s) and 6 neve gain stages.There are 4 passes, all I'll tell you is that one of them in ITB. They're very short clips, to make ABing fast and effective. I also gave them random names, or everyone would just like "A" or "1" better haha.
Here's the link, can't wait to read your guesses
https://we.tl/t-XvnZiHIVil
Incredible work! I'm really blown away. I'm finishing up an Electrodyne console build that seems like a lego kit in comparison haha. Beautiful room too.
A quick glance at the files on headphones - I'm guessing the ITB pass is the one with that's out of phase to the other 3? I think my favorite was "tfr" but man they are close.
A quick glance at the files on headphones - I'm guessing the ITB pass is the one with that's out of phase to the other 3? I think my favorite was "tfr" but man they are close.
Congrats, great build.
I would Love to have the Money and the Time, but I don't.
have Fun
I would Love to have the Money and the Time, but I don't.
have Fun
Fsharpminor
Active member
- Joined
- May 4, 2015
- Messages
- 41
Beautiful!
With one listen on MacBook speakers.
1) - Tfr
2) - Gfq
3) - xpt
4) - nbv
With one listen on MacBook speakers.
1) - Tfr
2) - Gfq
3) - xpt
4) - nbv
That's what I meant by making no sense. Audiophiles are known for supporting weird positions without any objective justification.ruffrecords said:
remsouille
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2012
- Messages
- 218
mhbunch said:
Actually, I had polarity swap plugins open here and there to try to cancel them out the best I could, I had left one open by accident. I uploaded a new wetransfer with 4 files at the same polarity
Studio Mollan
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2011
- Messages
- 323
Beautiful and inspirational build! Great job!!
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
Fantastic job! It really looks the part man, well done! It's a better job than AMS Neve did with the new 16 channel BCM10. Sexier, and more flexible, etc., etc.
On the pots for the 1272 bus amps, have you tried a good 10K linear with a 5K1 slug resistor as Neve did?
P.S. where did you get the metalwork for those 1272's?
On the pots for the 1272 bus amps, have you tried a good 10K linear with a 5K1 slug resistor as Neve did?
P.S. where did you get the metalwork for those 1272's?
remsouille
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2012
- Messages
- 218
Winston O'Boogie said:
Thank you so much, man!
Winston O'Boogie said:
Damn! I had forgotten about that! Problem solved, thank you so much!
Winston O'Boogie said:
I got them from this korean guy on ebay. They're sold as original neve but I'm really not sure they are, as the screws seem to be metric and the sliding guides are too wide for isep hardware.. The build quality is ok, though, and they do the job!
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
remsouille said:
With all the details you've had to keep track of there I can understand.
Anyway, given that linear pots are much more consistent than log, it'll just be an easy matter of finding one you like the feel of and, with the slug, your taper will correspond to Neve spec. Sorted !
remsouille said:
Thanks. I just took a peek at what he had. They look good and, as you said, they do the job.
Incidentally, I really like the look of your room, reminds me of a set from a cool '70's space movie.
I mean that in a good way.
The shape of your desk has a really nice aesthetic too.
Cheers
Mate , what a achievement.I am not sure that anybody have a clear picture of amount energy you put into this
crazy project.I am so glad that we were having you here in Serbia as a guest, for time being, the only one who pack 1/3 of console in a car, and bring it on our doorsteps.
crazy project.I am so glad that we were having you here in Serbia as a guest, for time being, the only one who pack 1/3 of console in a car, and bring it on our doorsteps.
Attachments
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
80hinhiding said:
Hey Adam,
yep, '2001 Space Odyssey' is probably what I was thinking of.
I'm OK thanks, dropped out of sight on ya there for a while, sorry. Stuff going on...
Plus it's just been a weird year overall of course.
Hope you're well too, nice to see ya on here.
Warp speed ahead on that mix! 8)
I love the "Eye" Light you have in the middle of the console.
What is that?
Is that just an "ON" indicator light?
Looks gorgeous and gives a really nice personality to the console
What is that?
Is that just an "ON" indicator light?
Looks gorgeous and gives a really nice personality to the console
remsouille
Well-known member
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- Oct 15, 2012
- Messages
- 218
Whoops said:
You might want to google HAL9000
It is on by default and turns off when solo is engaged!
Winston O'Boogie said:Hey Adam,
yep, '2001 Space Odyssey' is probably what I was thinking of.
The studio design is definitely a sustained nod to the late 60' and 70' sci-fi Aesthetic! I mostly had Star Wars and a bit of 2001 in mind. HAL9000 came in later, but he's present and every room now.
I just did a quick video of the whole control room so whoever's interested can see what it's all about
https://youtu.be/MN3sSQiR1fs
As you can see, I still have to extend my rack to host the newly built 14 row b -gauge patch and converters, and I previously had JBL 4310s in the sofits, but I didn't use them at all, so I eventually sold them and will ultimately fill those big ugly holes!
Thanks! Actually, that tiny bit is from a 20 minute song that I'm working on with a band called Last Train. Truly epic song, with lots of different vibes, big string session and all! I've already done a bunch of records with them, the latest came out in late 2019. We had tracked the basics live in the room at Ocean Sound in Norway, on the first ever built RND Shelford console. It was later overdubbed and mixed at my place!80hinhiding said:
I strongly recommend you guys check out the tune below. It is an 11minute piece that the band recorded live on the studio floor in one attempt (meaning they played the song just once in the studio, no edits, no nothing), onto a Studer 2" 8 track tape machine. Amazing musicianship, and they're young!
There were overdubs obviously, but not so many: lead vocals, big string section and one or two extra guitars. All the solos are live. For rock lovers out here, do yourself a favour, check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16yyEsRhZTg
remsouille said:You might want to google HAL9000
It is on by default and turns off when solo is engaged!
Nice, great idea and looks great.
Really gives a living personality to the desk, it makes it a character
zamproject
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 11, 2010
- Messages
- 1,592
Hello
Nice to see this great project nearly finish.
Un grand bravo !
Best
Zam
Nice to see this great project nearly finish.
Un grand bravo !
Best
Zam
Winston OBoogie
Well-known member
Hey Rémi, sounds great.
I've never been lucky enough to use a 2" 8 track but I'd sure like too!
This sort of situation is where a desk like yours will be great, tracking a band live, all playing together in the room.
I think that's where the biggest difference is made, the musicians hear it too and feed off it.
With mixing, I've had a hard time being able to hear a big difference between an analogue board and 'in the box'. Assuming a similar mix of course. I've got it wrong a few times on a double blind test so...
But the signal before it hits the converters, or the tape, give me your desk any day!
I've never been lucky enough to use a 2" 8 track but I'd sure like too!
This sort of situation is where a desk like yours will be great, tracking a band live, all playing together in the room.
I think that's where the biggest difference is made, the musicians hear it too and feed off it.
With mixing, I've had a hard time being able to hear a big difference between an analogue board and 'in the box'. Assuming a similar mix of course. I've got it wrong a few times on a double blind test so...
But the signal before it hits the converters, or the tape, give me your desk any day!
remsouille
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2012
- Messages
- 218
80hinhiding said:
Couldn't have said it better, man! I'm deeply satisfied with how all these files are not so different! To me, it's a great achievement. And it proves so many points I've always been very vocal about.
The whole analog thing, it's so very not as much about the gear itself than it's about the way it makes you work. And those things, you can't measure them.The best tool is the one you enjoy working with and the one that doesn't get in the way (or does, if you feel that's what you need at a particular moment).
Rest assured: I'm going to abuse the fucking thing. I was not planning on building a 250kg summing mixer hahaha
All that being said, I'm planning on another experiment: a 16 track song that I did a mix in the box today (the song is already out there, I was happy that the mix came out so easily ITB, because I had not mixed in the computer in a long time and found it really excruciating), then sum through the console and then send the tracks to some friends of mine who own a NEVE/EMI console and another friend who has access to a 1972 NEVE 8016 board. This way maybe we can hear how a new console (aka expensive summing mixer in that case) sounds versus a 50 year old one! But from what the previous experiment tells us, maybe they'll all sound the same!!
Winston O'Boogie said:
Right! I always say that if takes more than 5 seconds or 3 listens to hear a difference, then it's not a relevant difference!
2" 8 track is great, man! Then again, no magic bullet, but it's reaaally cool
remsouille said:
I have exactly the same opinion, and proceed using that concept, thats why I was able to make a professional career as a Mixing Engineer.
Wish you a lot of fun with your console
