ISIS seems alone in having zero state or group allies, but there are several with only a few. That matrix was last updated in 2014 so may be obsoleted as the sand shifts around in the ME desert.. One pretty obvious major player missing from that matrix is Russia. There may be more errors/changes, but that isn't the point.desol said:What I find a bit striking about that chart is that only three entities share about the same hate for everyone. Al Qaida, ISIS and Israel.
JohnRoberts said:ISIS seems alone in having zero state or group allies, but there are several with only a few. That matrix was last updated in 2014 so may be obsoleted as the sand shifts around in the ME desert.. One pretty obvious major player missing from that matrix is Russia. There may be more errors/changes, but that isn't the point.
It was just an excuse to bring up recent ME news that most western media blissfully ignores for the "dirty laundry" (and awkward POTUS tweets) du jour.
JR
That was easy.. : : but the united states is not in the middle east either using that (flawed) logic.desol said:Well, Russia is Asian(is it not?)...not Middle Eastern...so it does make sense they wouldn't be on that chart.
Complicated area the middle east. Complicated planet.
JohnRoberts said:That was easy.. : : but the united states is not in the middle east either using that (flawed) logic.
Never mind..
JR
Jarno said:The same goes for Russia, which was John's point.
Nice pivot : but that was also my point... that matrix was last updated in 2014 and Russia's expanding involvement in Syria (and with Iran) in the region is since that matrix was drawn. I am talking about now, only the future can be changed.desol said:Yeah but, how 'long' has Russia been involved in middle east operations vs US? Russia's real involvement(disturbance?) in the area appears to be quite recent it seems to me.
JohnRoberts said:Nice pivot : but that was also my point... that matrix was last updated in 2014 and Russia's expanding involvement in Syria (and with Iran) in the region is since that matrix was drawn. I am talking about now, only the future can be changed.
Turkey is negotiating with Russia over a no-fire zone in Syria protecting the last few million of Assad's opposition. The safety of this zone is in question due to poor/no cooperation from various terrorist factions in the region, not to mention that Turkey considers Kurds (American allies) to be terrorists. This probably won't end until more there are dead.
It is notable how few wealthy countries in the region accept migrants often literally running for their lives. Another reason so many risk the dangerous sea crossing to get feet in the EU. The Idlib region is pretty much landlocked so migrants would have to traverse Syrian army controlled ground to reach the Mediterranean, and the Turkish border is pretty much closed to them. Not a good end game for anti-Assad rebels, since Russia (and Iran) stepped up support for Assad.
JR
Truth can be somewhat subjective, even facts have been known to be muddied in some cases.desol said:Thanks for your response John. Interesting info on things. As far as the pivot is concerned, I'm not the one attempting to pivot; the truth has an easy enough time pivoting by itself, I find?
JohnRoberts said:Truth can be somewhat subjective, even facts have been known to be muddied in some cases.
I am a couple hundred pages into the Pinker book (blank slate). I like how he presents various theories about stuff often in contradiction. Not even half way through, so I expect to learn more.
JR
Sorry I didn't mean to stress your brain. You think I'm trolling?Banzai said:I'm at the point where any American supporting the Saudi's, must be trolling. My brain can't handle the alternative...
The proxy war is the same wider shia/sunni conflict across the entire region. The Houthis rebels in Yemen aka Ansar Allah are Zaidi-Shia followers. Iran has supported rockets fired into Saudi Arabia from Yemen (Mar 2018).But please stop referring to Yemen as a proxy war. Apart from Al-Qaeda*, there is no Saudi proxy active in Yemen – they are directly and indiscriminately bombing the Yemeni population, civilian infrastructures, and through their land, sea and air blockade, attempting to starve the entire population to death. At a rate of 50'000 dead children a year, it's nothing short of genocide.
Yes, i think we should declare all warfare to end immediately. :The US president proudly exclaiming how he considers arms manufacturer revenues and jobs as more important than the resolution of this conflict, is disgraceful. Same goes for British politicians who've made similar statements.
Every civilized person should want this to end. Now.
* source: https://apnews.com/f38788a561d74ca78c77cb43612d50da
Might?!? I don't think there's any argument to be had.arguably the military industrial complex (as warned about by Pres Eisenhower) might profit from military conflict around the world.
No you're right. The 15 Saudi's on 9/11, Bin Laden, ISIS, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were trolling you. Please continue supporting and arming Saudi Arabia, turning a blind eye to them exporting Salafist fundamentalism worldwide, to ensure the world burns for another 50-years.JohnRoberts said:Sorry I didn't mean to stress your brain. You think I'm trolling?
The Zaidi's governed North Yemen for 1000 years – they aren't a figment of Tehran's imagination. And sure, we all approve of Saudi Arabia pummelling Yemen for 3-years, but we're horrified by the Yemeni's defending themselves!The proxy war is the same wider shia/sunni conflict across the entire region. The Houthis rebels in Yemen aka Ansar Allah are Zaidi-Shia followers. Iran has supported rockets fired into Saudi Arabia from Yemen (Mar 2018).
So let's make this simple: don't support either the Saudi's or Iran!I don't pretend that this is simple but we can't ignore the puppet masters behind the curtain pulling the strings (providing the funds)... this is a battle for hegemony across the entire region between Iran and Saudis. THEY ARE BOTH THE BAD GUYS HERE....... At the moment we are aligned with Saudis, President Obama tried playing nice with Iran... I think they both (all?) want to kill us.
Yemen ffs. Stop pretending you have to be there, you have to sell bombs, you have to refuel Saudi jets, or otherwise the fabric of the universe will dissolve.Yes, i think we should declare all warfare to end immediately. :
boji said:Might?!? I don't think there's any argument to be had.
They are clearly motivated to perpetuate conflicts. Not all military sales are for immediate use in active conflict zones, a fraction is for defensive capability. As we are seeing play out in the ME if we withdraw, Russia and China are more than happy to rush in. Do not expect them to promote freedom and personal liberty. China seems motivated to gain new/larger markets for their goods (belt and road), Russia seems interested in restoring some past greatness (that wasn't that great).Our economy is entirely in the hands of the MIC.
Of course, and the west has benefited from that cheap oil. In recent years the expansion of US oil production has flipped us from an oil importer to net oil exporter (low single digit millions of barrels a day). This is more than many OPEC nations and reducing the cartel's leverage over world economies. (As I've already shared it looks like SA is pumping extra oil to drive down world prices right now to earn some forgiveness from the west for recent bad publicity).Arming SA keeps them selling their vast oil reserves to the world in US dollars.
Not going down that rabbit hole this early in the day...And don't get me started on Israel, Gulf War I, yellow cake, CIA's meddling with Contra's, Gulf of Tonkin, Allende, The Shah, and god knows what other false flags we've perpetrated. We might have begun some of those actions in the desire to reduce conflict and by extension, military spending, but that's never what ends up happening.
Geo politics makes strange partnerships.Banzai said:No you're right. The 15 Saudi's on 9/11, Bin Laden, ISIS, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were trolling you. Please continue supporting and arming Saudi Arabia, turning a blind eye to them exporting Salafist fundamentalism worldwide, to ensure the world burns for another 50-years.
Oh, and let them get away with 9/11 too. What else are friends for.
Huh?The Zaidi's governed North Yemen for 1000 years – they aren't a figment of Tehran's imagination. And sure, we all approve of Saudi Arabia pummelling Yemen for 3-years, but we're horrified by the Yemeni's defending themselves!
To repeat, I do not trust Russia or China to be better world citizens.It's the same stupidity where the US pretends it's at peace at home, whilst at war 10'000 miles away:
If you start a conflict, don't act like a victim when the other side finally shoots back.
So let's make this simple: don't support either the Saudi's or Iran!
didn't say it was... Our main problem with Iran is them supporting terrorism across the ME region and oppressing their own citizens. The missiles fired into SA from Yemen were Iranian made.And no, Iran is not at the level of Saudi Arabia.
As I already shared military support for SA has been reduced in response to the bad publicity over Khashoggi (a win for the shia team)It's not Iranian jets who are bombing weddings, funerals, schools, hospitals, ports, and blockading all aid and medicine from entering Yemen. It's also not Iran spending $5-6 billion a month on bombing Yemen:
and that makes it OK?Your own state department put the total amount spent by Iran on their "adventurism" between 2012 and 2018 as only $16 billion* . The Saudi's spend that exact amount, every three months, just in Yemen! The US spends 5 times more than that, every year, just in Afghanistan, as part of their $6 TRILLION total spend since 9/11.
But sure, it's Iran who's the problem and threatening world peace...
Yemen ffs. Stop pretending you have to be there, you have to sell bombs, you have to refuel Saudi jets, or otherwise the fabric of the universe will dissolve.
* From Pompeo's twitter (https://twitter.com/SecPompeo/status/1049635981006114819)
Sure they are. Let's give them another 40-years of proselytizing Salafism in their 1000's of mosques worldwide, and see if there's an improvement.JohnRoberts said:In case you haven't noticed the Saudi government is recently trying to reduce religious fundamentalist influence within the kingdom (and exported). This is not simple or easy and they have much work to do.
1) The US narrative expects people to be outraged by missiles fired into Saudi Arabia from Yemen. We should all be horrified that a peaceful country like Saudi Arabia is attacked by the Houthi's... Sorry, no. The Saudi's are at war – the missiles are a retaliation for the non-stop bombing, and are legitimate self-defence.Huh?
Better they use your bombs than Russia's? That's a disgraceful position to hold. What happened to western morals, values, and standing for human rights?To repeat, I do not trust Russia or China to be better world citizens
How do you suggest they shipped these missiles through the land, sea and air blockade? The UN themselves confirmed they have no proof of Iran violating the arms embargo. At best, the missiles contain Iranian upgrades in the form of electronics. This is known – there are Iranian advisors in Yemen, teaching the Houthi's how to upgrade their vintage scuds.didn't say it was... Our main problem with Iran is them supporting terrorism across the ME region and oppressing their own citizens. The missiles fired into SA from Yemen were Iranian made.
Makes what OK? Iran is a top-25 world economy, and you expect them to have no allies, no interests, no security concerns, and no involvement in their own region?and that makes it OK?
Again, this argument was killed by your own state department being run by the tactically challenged: if Iran's total spend on 'mischief' is $16B over 6 years, that amounts to under $3B/year. So can you explain how Iran is hurting its economy and making its citizens suffer, by spending $3B/year? Supposedly they had spent all the windfall from the nuclear deal on terrorists, i.e. hundreds of billions of dollars, but now we hear it's only $6B since 2016?? That's what Saudi Arabia spends in 1 MONTH bombing Yemen!To repeat both Iran and SA are responsible... Arguably we are not without some blame. We can only influence SA with carrots, and Iran with sticks (economic sanctions). Sadly the sanctions hurt the Iranian public disproportionately as Iran still manages to export $B worth of mischief across the region, allowing their own economy and citizens to suffer.
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