There used to be some SPIRIT on this forum.......

[Echo North]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think there are two separate issues being addressed here.  Maybe Ethan can correct me if I'm wrong.

1.  Addressing the issue of creating a "safer" Black Market (now located along the top menu bar).  Not often, but occasionally, people get burned in the BM.  I know Ethan mentioned in a thread a few weeks ago that he was working on a BM that would incorporate a seller feedback system.  This, I believe, is a separate issue unrelated to the WM and group buys.  I think this is more an issue of a) having a traditional black market where you buy at your own risk or b) having an auction style system where there is feedback and accountability.

2. The confusion everyone is having over how to address group buys.  I've seen a number of people running small PCB buys in the BM state "I'm not sure if this should be here or in the WM" and it's a fair question.  Like Ethan stated, many business start innocently enough from group buys.  What I suspect is happening is that person X is selling a PCB at a small mark up in the BM.  They've run a couple of buys and decide (or are asked to move) to the WM.  Now person Y comes along and starts a simular PCB buy in the BM.  Person X sees that and the $240 a year he pays to be in the WM and sees it as unfair.  You can play it out from there.  Ultimately neither side is in the wrong, they are just rightfully confused.  There is an example of two almost identical PCB buys happening right now.  One is in the WM and the other in the BM. 

This second issue in now being addressed by Ethan.  If it's one time it's a group buy, if you do a second run move it to the WM.  I'm actually completely in favor of group buys and love that they now have a dedicated forum.

Again you may agree or disagree with how the issues were addressed, but I believe they are separate.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[grantlack]

as this thread gets longer I'm starting to see the merit of just leaving things as they are
it's not really broken ? 
Have more long time members slowly disappeared ? and we'll be left with what  , the complainers ?

i know you weren't really framing your argument this way, but the silence of long-time members is actually what concerns me about the forum at large.  some are still technically active, but have grown quite quiet.
ssltech- last post in July of 2011
analag- 5 posts in 4 months
owel- last post in June of 2011
svart- last post in March of 2010
kev- last post in August of 2011

and i'm sure there are more instances that i didn't check.  maybe everybody's just getting on with their lives, or maybe the forum's getting watered down and they have fewer meaningful conversations to contribute to.  i think it's an organizational problem, but ymmv.

 

[jsteiger]

I am pretty well inline with Mike on this.

When the White Market started, I had to move my large BM thread and start anteing up. At first I was a little pissed but got over it. At that time, if you all remember, the BM was way out of hand. Something had to change. I won't lie, this is a business for me and the WM fee's are a business expense like many others I have. So be it. Also, when I pay my full year in advance, I always throw in something extra for the cause.

Like Mike said, I am also all in favor of old school Group Buys. But, who's to define a true Group Buy? Is the person running the buy entitled to make a profit or just do it to help out and for the love or maybe to get a few free parts for himself? Well, maybe the one running it should make all his invoices public to prove that it is a non for profit true Group Buy? Otherwise, WM it goes.

I am not sure who is trying to bullsh!t who here but I know how much PCB's cost and 98% of the "Group Buys" are clearly profitable endeavors. If you think I am wrong, then prove it. Supply your invoices to the public. If not, then STFU and pay for the WM like the other 33 business are doing.

To be very clear on one thing, I did not "whine" to Ethan about Peterc. If you all remember, I was one of the very few who stuck up for him during the 5003 process. Most everybody else had him strung from a tall tree. The last thing I want is to loose Peter as a member here or friend.

I mostly feel sorry for Ethan. I am pretty sure he never thought he would need to be the only teacher on the playground while all the out of hand kids were kicking and spitting on each other during recess. I could never be in his position. I would just close the forum. He is for sure not making enough money to deal with this bullsh!t.

Cheers, Jeff

 

[gemini86]

I'm one of those BM group buy dudes everyone is talking about... So this thread had been a daily read for me. It's good to see everyone's side on this issue, as I have already felt it Is an issue. I never planned on doing a group buy for the 9K2 pcbs... I was going to get 10 made, 4 for a friends of mine, 2 for myself and the rest were spares that I didn't need or want, so to offset the cost to my friend and I, I was going to sell the others at cost.

Then a little bit of nudging here and there from interested forum members led to me spending about another 24 hours total in layout and design time to add the features requested by the forum, and offer up the results in both a FREE self-etch option, or buy a PCB.

Did I profit, monetarily speaking? Yes. Did I get a fair wage for my time spent? In my opinions, hell no. After standing in line at the post office (during my lunch breaks or even when during my normal work hours, when the boss would permit), not to mention design time and the eventual support thread monitoring, which will all detract from DIY, not to mention actually freakin recording some damn music someday, I've barely broken even. Now, add in the price of similar designs, you can tell my group buy was not done for profit.

These are the group buys which need not be under attack. I have decided to move to the WM, once the G9-51X is ready, not just because of the heat felt on my back, but the forum deserves it. 20 bucks a month is a bargain, really. Advertisement to over 10K users with the same interest? That's targeting a market to a bullseye. How long can I afford it? I don't know. Hopefully long enough to get everyone the support needed to build their units, but some people buy buy buy, then let the stuff sit for years until they have the free time to do something with it, so it would suck to have a WM thread open for months, with sales only happening in the first, maybe second month only. That drive the price up, and totally defeats the purpose of a group buy.

Aw hell...sorry for the long post, chaps. Hope some of that made sense.

Rodney OUT.

 

[G-Sun]

Sorry to hear that Peter.
As a newbie, I can only say: My builds would not have passed soldering xlr-cables if it wasn't for people like you..

 

[Echo North]

Part of the issue at hand is that we've managed to redefine "group buy".  In my mind, a group buy means someone has contacted a company about purchasing a tangible product and has found there is either a minimum order or they offer a great discount in quantity.  They post to gauge intrest and start a list.  It's not done for profit other than it's considered appropriate for the organizer to get his parts for free.

PCBs by nature don't make great group buys because they need to be designed and test by someone.  It would be crazy for them not to be or expect to be compensated.  That makes it for profit and it should be in the WM.  Rather than complicating things, Ethan has come up with a great compromise IMO.  You can have a one time group buy in the new free market.  I think this works out well for those who want to do a PCB run, and make it fair for themselves.  Want to do a second run?  Well than you should contribute to the forum for the exposure you're getting.

Please keep in mind that running a business is no cake walk either.

I have a full time job (8 hours - 5 days a week) and spend 8 hours at night (5 days a week) on Hairball stuff.  Most of the weekend is spent on a new project I've been working on for over a year.  I spend my breakfast and lunch break at work answering HB emails.  Stand in line at the PO on the way home, walk my dogs, eat then work till midnight paying bills, emails, filling orders.  I've done nothing but my day job an Hairball for 3 years now.  And to be honest, sometimes it's really hard. 

Keep in mind up to 45% of all profit is given back in income and SE tax.  I have to pay state and city licensing and taxes (monthly).  LLC fees yearly... insurance on stock, liability insurance, payroll service fees, website fees...and I'm missing about 100 more things.  The point is that running a proper business is expensive and everyone has their hands in your pockets.

I bet when it's all said and done I make less than minimum wage doing this.  I'd probably cry if I looked.  Most small business owners live this kind of 24/7 life.  The point I'm making is that for many of us in the WM it's not about making money, because comparably a job at McDonalds would be more profitable and less stressful.  What it is about, and this is true of most if not all small businesses, is a passion for the subject matter.  In this case electronics. 

I've just finished an original design product I've been working on for 2 years and I'll probably never break even on it.  I did it because I wanted to contribute something new and learn something.  I may never make money on it but it's easily the coolest thing I've ever done in my life and I'm proud of it.  That makes all of the 16 hour days worth it.

No one in the WM or selling PCBs in the free market wants or deserves to be attacked.  Ethan has made a clear and fair guideline.  Let's all try and follow it and see what happens.

Mike

 

[Ptownkid]

Mike is quite spot on...and

I am not sure who is trying to bullsh!t who here but I know how much PCB's cost and 98% of the "Group Buys" are clearly profitable endeavors.

quoted for truth...

 

[kepeb]

this is a load of old sh*t.


I'm glad this forum is here but if it were not.. the same folks would congregate elsewhere.

Maybe I'm underestimating how much time is devoted to running a simple machines forum. full time job?, but there seems to be enough time to pick and choose exactly what gets policed.
With White Market , Advertisements, Donations and now t-shirts, the per annum here is easily more than I'm on. Fact.

EDIT: + $1 FOR EVERY BM LISTING NOW?!

and guys are discussing more fees for elitists?

there are still no names... why? were there any? if there are... whats to stop these same people paying said fee(s) and making the place sh*t with more chinese whispers??

this is an interest for me, a hobby which I like to take part in when time/funds allow. some of the less costly projects allowed me to learn a lot and have fun talking to the people here.
this is looking to be phased out, if anyone sharing a project is bullied into a $240 yearly fee then my pastime (or at least time spent here) probably has a bleak future.

the fact is...!
peteC is withdrawing his valuable contributions because of greed and jealousy.

 

[kepeb]

do you own/maintain/run a business? (got a website? got stock of this item?)
YES = WM
NO = BM

If any user is in question it should be publicly addressed and agreed upon as a community
simple. (eg. business proto/test runs and private items)

None of this back scratching PM business.

Also, if it is required that you have your wits about you (common sense) to trade via black market then so be it. unless we'd all like to trade in a giant creshe. I thought that was what ebay was for.


EDIT: OH MY SHIT just looked in the new BM that things a dollar a go now?
this place is getting furkin stoopid

 

[Echo North]

I think you'd crap in your pants if you knew what it cost to run a forum like this.  Bandwidth, storage, servers and maintenance...now add all the stuff I talked about above because this forum is run by a business.

I wish I could take Ethan out for a beer right about now for all the work he does and BS he hears.

 

[kepeb]

Forgive me but
I doubt there's any way for us to know or even estimate that without the necessary server/usage information.

somehow many, many other forums manage to do it.

the only notable difference being the recent useful addition of schematics section. this (although completely user contributed) would be an acceptable fee based area if you really thought that users would pay to play.
but nobody here ever seems to be asked for an opinion before changes happen.

why all the secrecy?

just for the record, If I didn't like/care about the place I wouldn't bother posting. I have a lot of respect for the people and opinions here.
But I think this incident has highlighted a few problems, Its not pleasant to watch it going down the toilet.

 

[mitsos]

There are many sides to this thing, and I think we need to keep talking about it peacefully until we come to a conclusion that satisfies everyone.

I agree to disagree with Jeff and Mike, I know they're nice and actually give back to the community, but they missed the point on group buys (ever ran one?) which were the basis of how we got stuff back before evryone and their brother had a WM thread.  I feel like jesus preaching to the pharisees.. this place has gone totally commercial, and in the process pissed off a lot of older members who have made valuable contributions in the past, and now we end up with few good threads among a whole lot of product support threads. Like TV and commercials. It sucks, that's why they invented cable/sat/whatever and people pay to get it.

I definitely think the problems were caused by the creation of the white market.

IMO, there was nothing wrong with the BM at the time, other than some weirdos popping up JUST to sell their stuff. People who would NEVER post in any other part of the forum.  So, instead of just banning those people, it was decided to make a white market.  So, instead of having those crazies posting on the BM, we started getting people who would register and within littel time open a WM account with some new fabulous project.  But the real kicker is that there were people who would make their very first post opening a WM thread! wtf??

Here's the latest:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=47421.0

I have no idea who it is, maybe it's an old member who decided to change their name to their business name. But it sure looks weird.

What about the guy that was selling (basically) a new layout for the gyraf pultec (the same EXACT circuit) as his own?  I think they are still selling it, some site that also sells guitar pedals, in France or something. No longer here, at least.

these are the kinds of problems that were happening in the BM, which the WM was supposed to solve, and guess what? They still happen, but now it's OK cuz the posters are paying $20 a month. Thanks, but no thanks.

As far as cost of running this place, I have no idea really, I don't really care anymore, but I doubt it costs 660 a month.  I could be wrong, of course but it's none of my business.  I have however offered to pay for my share of it, as a yearly fee, and have said that I think every member should pay their share, but I was caled a socialist. all I have to say to that is that it sounds like mccarthyism to me.

 

[okgb]

Freestompbox  has been having some similar issues , although more related to people copying and hiding
copied and unoriginal designs , maybe something to be learned there .

Sometimes grp buys are innocent  , hope to sell 50 , post the 50 price end up selling 100 get the 100 price
sometimes that covers mail loses , as noted doesn't really compensate for the amount of time , but there's
the intent & spirit I'd like to buy some at the 50 price if 49 other people agree then we should be happy
enough that participants accepted the 50 price .
more than a few have spring boarded these into successful businesses but no one
including peter has an obligation to keep feeding people cheap or free stuff just because
they started a thread , tad started his own forum , anyone buying into any buy is ahead of the game
it's not a bad opportunity whether white or black ,

If one was running a studio business , you just do whatever you have to to survive , not likely critical that
you get this d.i.y. pre  to save your business , so is this more of dreaming & greed  ? I can buy into all the advertising
but it won't cost me the big neve dollars or i can make some money  " helping " others  But it's my right  to own a knock off design and beat the chinese at our game and expect customer service from a grp that i pay nothing into  [ that could be a problem as well , paying money may lead to greater expectations .

back to the studio sometimes the time  / money value ratio  shifts  , Need it now - buy it  , want it cheaper - make it

Lets not overshadow the lab and getting advice fixing gear with no local repair or schematics , big value there

perhaps we need a prodigy lotto account so we can really argue over money , and a new home relations advice section
[ honey why are you on the computer so much and it's not porn ? ] ha !

 

[G-Sun]

From what I know, the yearly cost of a server and domain like this, are not that large.
(Lot of pictures would add a little though). And typical I guess other forums like this are using advertising to pay the bill.
Transparency is for me the keyword.

Now, moderation and establishing a good culture could take a lot of time, but I'll guess it's not typical a paid work.

I think everyone should find the balance for them self, what they like to contribute for free, and what they would take money for. And be open about it.

 

[okgb]

There was good forum culture
It seems to have gotten diluted or subverted as if everyone should have every right
right off the bat , .................you know , the days where people watched first until they understood
or actually had an idea ,

 

[Biasrocks]

There are many sides to this thing, and I think we need to keep talking about it peacefully until we come to a conclusion that satisfies everyone.

this place has gone totally commercial, and in the process pissed off a lot of older members who have made valuable contributions in the past, and now we end up with few good threads among a whole lot of product support threads.

[quote author=okgb]
but it won't cost me the big neve dollars or i can make some money  " helping " others  But it's my right  to own a knock off design and beat the chinese at our game and expect customer service from a grp that i pay nothing into  [ that could be a problem as well , paying money may lead to greater expectations .
[/quote]

Nail, head, hit.

The WM justifies and encourages commercialism.

Many folks now use this place as a basis to garner information, develop, prove and launch commercial products.

I'm not judging, simply calling a spade a spade.

Regards,
Mark

 

[jsteiger]

Maybe or maybe not but is that all really a bad thing? I like to think that most of the WM companies are providing a great service to the community. In there, you will find easy access to things that cannot be found anywhere else in the world. That is very valuable to the community if you ask me. Besides making the parts available for easy purchase, most times the prices are very low if not sometimes stupid cheap. How is that bad? Besides the one of a kind, nowhere else in the world things, I carry a lot of normal bits and pieces that can be found at all the big box online stores. 99.9% of the time, my prices are lower than you can find ay any of the said big box stores. Is that so bad? I don't think so.

 

[gemini86]

I don't have a problem with the WM at all... I have no idea where else to get high quality laser engraving...got some very helpful 51X prototyping bits from classic api, and all sort of other members have either inspired or facilitated me through the years.

I do get frustrated by all the noobs jumping in thinking this is a product support forum. They buy a kit or pcb from somebody and then whine when they either can't be bothered to read a book, learn to use their dmm properly, or don't want to read through a large support thread. (the ADD nation is taking over, I say! All them video games! ) Back in the day, you bought a heathkit, if it didn't work when you were done, you start from the beginning and figure it out, or you take it to your friend's uncle's repair shop and he makes you wash some windows to look at it for you. (I don't really know that... I wasn't alive, but that's how I imagine life without the interwebs)

I like to see the progress, but I hate to see the old legends fade away into obscurity...

 

[Biasrocks]

Maybe or maybe not but is that all really a bad thing? I like to think that most of the WM companies are providing a great service to the community.

This is an absolutely great thing Jeff. It goes with out saying that you and many others give back to the community and this would be a sadder place without you and the services that you offered.

I've seen this transition over the period of the last few years and I realize that I'm painting with a broad brush. I certainly don't envy the amount of initial or on going effort that it takes to provide a service such as yours. In many cases it's a labour of love.

My point is that for some, the WM justifies any type of commercialism, be it good or bad to the community. Case in point, the 'improved' 990 that popped up here and on Ebay out of no where. I'm sure that some of the knowledge to create this product came from this very place.

I just bought a pair of 990c's from John, for less than what is being asked for the 'improved' ones. I thought John's contributions over the years were invaluable and I want to support his efforts, even if it's for a small purchase.

I think it's important for everyone to take notice of the good guys and offer our support for their efforts. There's too many names that come to mind to mention, but I think we all know who they are.  8)

Karma +1.

Regards,
Mark

 

[emrr]

This is an intriguing discussion.

I'm happy to see the WM there.  When it was only the BM, the entire first page would frequently be filled with commercial offerings that were constantly spammed to keep them at the top.  It's now sequestered.

I have yet to imagine a thing I'd want to manage a group buy for, so it rankles nothing here. 

I spent a lot of time horse trading vintage audio at one point, and that's a real grey area in this discussion, might provide some tangential perspective.  Very little of what I had to sell was easily available elsewhere, none of it was ever something I could possibly 'stock', yet as a day-in day-out operation it at times provided a significant revenue stream.  A constant stream of singular items.  Where do you put that?  The BM was the only place that makes sense, but did it really meet the definition?  It is more suited for something like the new BM, I think.   

Backing up, this is a perspective I have from a time predating my participation here.  I've really not listed too many things here.  If I had pursued it more, it could have looked like a steady spam stream.  I tried to put as many things in one BM thread as the subject line would cover, and continue to edit and adjust single threads for as much content as made sense, rather than posting a zillion single item topics. 

The new format will create significantly more listings due to the singular item nature (at least as it appears today).  If it creates another competitive outlet against ebay, perhaps it will provide a greater service to many members here, while providing a new layer of trust and protection with the feedback system. 

Carry on.