There used to be some SPIRIT on this forum.......

[wtmnmf]

Peterc - Don't do it!  Once the good folks start to leave, there will be no thoughtful solution.  :'(

Ethan - It must be difficult to keep your cool sometimes 

All - Gearslutz is a cesspool; let's stay far away from that model.  :

Don't participate in discussions that move the forum in a direction that you don't like. 
Starve the trolls.
Reward those that frame questions thoughtfully with all the attention you can afford. 

If you don't like prefab case sellers, please don't jump into one of those their threads to tell us what an abomination it is.  Instead, start or participate vigorously in, a thread that emphasizes DIY case building.  Some think inductors should all be hand wound, some think that a DIY DOA is the real thing, etc. , each person decides for themselves how far they want to carry on.  I bet the majority of people bought their first piece of audio equipment factory-made, and then progressively descended down the slippery DIY slope.

I also think that Ethan and his Mod's can handle the policing of the forum without help from the peanut gallery.  Am I wrong?

I'm not sure that I would have taken offense in the way that Peterc has, but I think that he has just cause to feel the way that he does.

All in all, this forum is still a very good thing, and will change and evolve with the times, which requires a good faith effort on everyone's part if we are to keep it as a very good thing. 

 

[kepeb]

well excuse me (and others) for NOT being passive aggressive and coming directly out with what I thought...

What follows is my "opinion"
there may be multiple subjects addressed in this thread but they ALL coincide.

I don't have a business or WM thread so I don't Need another sale based website with an obligatory forum attached. I am stating (AS MY OPINION!) that MY preference was to maintain a great forum where the users sometimes even traded parts and ideas.

Poor Mans Ebay is great to make the place as BROAD as possible and ensure the flow of repetitive questions whilst creating extra income, is also great for WM guys, whether you are selling from your first post or if you've been here for years. Unfortunately, with a few exceptions(and good exceptions ).. I see them generally adding very little here except to support their own product particularly the recent 'merchants'.

ALSO, I have no problem with Ethan. my opinion is on the direction of the forum. It's clearly his forum and he does what he likes regardless of majority opinion. that's his prerogative.

You suggest we extend this... Even if that means silencing those who disagree or... apparently, even metaphorically refer to his balls?
this forum would be nothing without the amazing contributions of those it is currently trying to alienate. The choice has been made... specifically exampled here:
free knowledge from peterC or money from WM.

Ban users with an opinion?
nice.

 

[hodad]

Poor Mans Ebay is great to make the place as BROAD as possible and ensure the flow of repetitive questions whilst creating extra income/snip./

ALSO, I have no problem with Ethan. my opinion is on the direction of the forum. It's clearly his forum and he does what he likes regardless of majority opinion. that's his prerogative.

Ban users with an opinion?
nice.

I don't think anyone has a problem with opinions--it's an issue of respect.  I think folks were more bothered by ad hominem attacks, not the opinions of posters.

Second, what's the majority?  There are thousands of registered users here, and only a handful posting on this thread.  And I find the Brewery is not the most representative of the overall constituency of the place (which may be why I like it as much as I do.)  And you yourself suggest that Ethan's changes would broaden the appeal of the place--doesn't that suggest that he's pleasing the majority? 

But I don't know if that's really what Ethan's goal is.  I think he's responding to changes in the community (as I pointed out in another post, the audio diy world has changed radically over the past 10 years or so.)  I look at what Ethan's working on, and it looks like a good start at something likely to evolve quite a bit.  There's the potential (and I'm just theorizing, mind you), if the "commercial" end is large enough, that it will become a thing more or less unto itself, and there will be a less busy place left behind for the big brains (and all the little brains that try to keep up) to do some less project-oriented discussion. 

We'll never "go back to how it was."  But how we proceed given the shifted landscape is a difficult thing to figure out.  I know Ethan is trying, and if the past is any indicator, he will incorporate the opinions and suggestions of list members into his decisions and actions as best he can.  I think a little patience and forbearance would be welcome, and (respectful) voicing of opinions, supportive or contrary, is an excellent thing. 

 

[okgb]

At the risk of too many categories  , Almost need a support section for all the now established projects
on the white market  , other side issues are thread starters not cleaning or updating meta's & threads
redundant or non-searched questions clogging threads .
I not being serious but it's almost like new posters should go through a graduation process where they
eventually gain access to categories and posting privileges ..............watch & learn ?

 

[abechap024]

At the risk of too many categories  , Almost need a support section for all the now established projects
on the white market  , other side issues are thread starters not cleaning or updating meta's & threads
redundant or non-searched questions clogging threads .
I not being serious but it's almost like new posters should go through a graduation process where they
eventually gain access to categories and posting privileges ..............watch & learn ?

I've been following this thread...I am torn. I hope I am not part of the problem, and I hear a lot of different opinions and can see the validity in most all of them. I too liked how this forum "used" to be, just black market, no ads, simple, simple, simple. I like the simplicity, but alas things are changing. It is becoming a broader topic of discussion, people love audio DIY for a broad array of reasons.

We have people that build because they believe the quality of their workmanship/part selection can't be found elsewhere.
We have people that love to record music and their never-ending search of better sound quality or chasing that elusive sound dragon has brought them to this forums door step. We have the purists that only do DIY from the case to the parts to the knobs. For us to collectively or individually hold our certain idea of "what DIY audio should be" esteemed higher then our fellow DIY brother, then I believe we start becoming part of the problem instead of the solution.

There are more projects available now then ever before, which i think is a great thing. Many options, many vendors. Sure there are those people that remember the days of etching your own boards, doing it all DIY. Well I say to them, no one is stopping you from continuing that! I see that the forum is changing, but I really almost ask myself what is the problem? Whenever these threads creep up of "the forum isn't what it used to be" I ask myself, what has changed? Is a moan thread going to fix anything? Or have these people just become board with audio DIY? Looking to be spoon fed a project that meets thier personal expectations of what a project should be? I think we should all take a long look at ourselves, and before we start moaning that all the "classics" are gone, start looking at what maybe we, ourselves can contribute to try and fill that void. If you personally feel like you miss the days of seeing new creative designs, well respectfully go out and sit down and make one! Feel privileged then to share or not share. All in all this is ONLY what we make it, so very quickly anyone who complains not only points our the problem but quickly becomes the problem.

The people that I've learned most from are still posting in the very alive and active forum beyond this thread, and still actively sharing their knowledge and learning and growing. We complain that there is too much "Noise to Signal" ratio in this forum, then I ask what is this thread?

...And I become part of the problem! :-X

 

[dandeurloo]

Well, I am not sure how to fix a few of the issues that the forum has to deal with.  But I will say that the WM is for guys like me!  I should pay a few bucks a month for my offerings.  Guys like myself have no problems doing that.  I actually think that Ethan created the WM as a service for me more then a way to generate funds for the forum.  I am happy to pay the reasonable WM cost. 

As far as guys selling stuff to other guys here on the forum with 1 off builds and an alternative to ebay.... I think there needs to be a place for that and its just about sorting it out. But when it is a "Product" it belongs in the WM.

my 2 cents

 

[jsteiger]

Well, I am not sure how to fix a few of the issues that the forum has to deal with.  But I will say that the WM is for guys like me!  I should pay a few bucks a month for my offerings.  Guys like myself have no problems doing that.  I actually think that Ethan created the WM as a service for me more then a way to generate funds for the forum.  I am happy to pay the reasonable WM cost....

I do agree with this Dan.

Not that I am an old timer here cuz I am not, but one thing I do find humorous is some of the guys moaning about the WM in this thread have forum join dates that are after the WM was implemented. Should their opinions be taken seriously?

 

[bruno2000]

When I do a circuit board design, it's because I want to build some for myself, no other reason.  I always order more boards than I need for obvious reasons, and usually have some left over.  I am confused as to which "venue" would be appropriate if I wanted to offer the leftovers for sale.  Please advise.
Thanks!
Best,
Bruno2000

 

[[silent:arts]]

The time it was invented / discussed due to some black market problems most members agreed it was / is a good idea. For sure people offering in the white market wants to have the fees back.

Why did I move to the white market? (Jeff and me are paying 1 + 1/3 a year):
my projects started as group buys in the black market.
the constantly "oh, I missed the deadline, why don't you have some spares" etc got on my nerves.
my idea was to have everything I offered constantly in stock.
not always doable I know now, and prices went a bit higher to compensate the unknown stocking time I have to pre-finance, re-order quantity I need to decide, thinks like this.

You all want to be secure buying stuff, I remember the short time frame until people claimed for Peter why the EQ PCBs didn't arrived (yet), the always happening panic once his threat disappeared from the white market. It must be hard to pay the fees just to prevent the panic (the group buy was already closed at that moment).

Peter, it would be a loss to loose you.
Raise the prices to pay the fees.
But there will be the next threat why your PCBs are priced so high ...

so - I'm with you.

edit / PS: I doubt any of the posting white market members complained about your black market offerings

 

[Ethan]

When I do a circuit board design, it's because I want to build some for myself, no other reason.  I always order more boards than I need for obvious reasons, and usually have some left over.  I am confused as to which "venue" would be appropriate if I wanted to offer the leftovers for sale.  Please advise.
Thanks!

Free Market = If people want to pitch in for a one-time group buy to lower the price of the boards when ordering...or...If you want to give them away.

Black Market = If you want to sell off a few of your personal items. Note that the BM now allows members to give feedback after a transaction is completed.

White Market = If you want to continue to repeatedly sell those or advertise your business.

 

[okgb]

In my city I have a car mechanic i trust , I never question how much he charges
I don't want to lose him through pettiness .
Being in the white market most of the posters are established , what is the value of trustworthiness ?
and still most of the prices are fair , up to the individual to not agree or buy it
the quality is as good or better than commercial products , so value is there .
Most offering are kits
On the black market , there maybe used commercial gear , parts of kits [ which can be cheaper for some ]
or things not offered by white market posters .
Either way , i wouldn't have some of the gear i do , IF it weren't for prodigy being here
5.00 or doing my share , or something , no problem

I try to support all the grp buys to help make them successful  [ it' is getting hard & depressing to keep up ]
and whether it's white or black market  , the ones that are all inclusive help me succeed , thanks , you know who you are
[ it's worth any extra cost to insure i come out with a working item ]

 

[grantlack]

granted i'm quite low on gravitas being a relatively 'new kid,' but since i spend most of my day here in some form i have a personal stake and will continue to chirp.

New people have joined and I think they have a lot of knowledge to add.  In fact, I think we have some new legends in the making.  Unfortunately, there is more noise because we have more people, and that makes it harder to see.  However, as stated the genie is out of the bottle.  So what we do?

renovate!  if a studio had one huge control room where 4 engineers tracked different bands simultaneously, that would sound like a racket too.  seems analogous enough to the lab in its current state.  i support your suggestions, or at least the non-binding decision to offer some. 

At the risk of too many categories  , Almost need a support section for all the now established projects on the white market

PLEASE!  as well as a home for other available projects.  or combine them.  whatever.  point is, a lot of threads that belong in official support need a funnel to catch them.  ethan wanted to reorganize- many voted no, but continue to get upset by clutter and redundancy (as do i).  change doesn't make itself.  if this marketplace iteration doesn't work, i'm sure ethan will continue adapting it until it does, but fear of a new bad answer wouldn't have excused sticking with the former.  i'm glad ethan is acting decisively, medicine always tastes like crap.

I think the #1 thing all of us can do is get back to theory.

agreed, with caveats.  for all the bemoaning of everything 'clone,' how much of this forum has ever really been from original designs?  sure there's the peppering of nyd/prr/gus/analag/kingston et al here and there, but even at inception it's been 1176's, pultecs, (and eventually nite eq's and s800's  ) &etc. much of the realm has been conquered until the next big paradigm shift... how "original" are pre-proven building blocks with selected components anyway?  theory and application is the only way we'll see new ideas, or at least different enough to not be a straight-up clone.

I think we should all take a long look at ourselves, and before we start moaning that all the "classics" are gone, start looking at what maybe we, ourselves can contribute to try and fill that void. If you personally feel like you miss the days of seeing new creative designs, well respectfully go out and sit down and make one! Feel privileged then to share or not share.

very fair assessment, 'be the change you wish to see in the world' and so on.  at the end of the day, this is a richer place with more content- be it "clone," "tribute," "original," whatever.  i say this realizing my own piss poor amount of contribution to date, which will start to turn around once i chase out some gremlins :

 

[[silent:arts]]

I don't understand the discussion / relationship with "clones".
Didn't all this start with Gyraf projects?
Aren't all those long active projects (at least simplified) "clones"?

 

[bruno2000]

When I do a circuit board design, it's because I want to build some for myself, no other reason.  I always order more boards than I need for obvious reasons, and usually have some left over.  I am confused as to which "venue" would be appropriate if I wanted to offer the leftovers for sale.  Please advise.
Thanks!

Free Market = If people want to pitch in for a one-time group buy to lower the price of the boards when ordering...or...If you want to give them away.

Black Market = If you want to sell off a few of your personal items. Note that the BM now allows members to give feedback after a transaction is completed.

White Market = If you want to continue to repeatedly sell those or advertise your business.

Thanks for the clarification!  Looks like the Black Market is where my leftovers should go.
Best,
Bruno2000

P.S.  Thanks Ethan for all the effort you've put into this.  Beer is on me!

 

[Echo North]

I don't understand the discussion / relationship with "clones".
Didn't all this start with Gyraf projects?
Aren't all those long active projects (at least simplified) "clones"?

Easy target.  Everyone wants something or someone to blame.

Part of the problem that some people have, is the shift from true DIY ethic, which I understand.  For example, I'm an indy rock snob.  BIG TIME.  If there are more than 40 people at a show, I'm done with the band (exaggerating a little), they're too big...sellouts.  Once someone I don't like says the band is cool, I'm done with the band.  I'm actually a pretty big douche about it. 

DIY is simular.  Like any good band, the popularity of DIY has grown.  It's become more commercial and popular.  The new fans only like the songs they've heard on the radio (like 1176 and LA2A).  Us real fans know that those songs are overrated and their earlier stuff was the real deal.

You see where I'm going.

Easy to blame clones and WM businesses.  Ironically I have a pretty punk rock business ethic that I kinda based off how constellation records does things.  I still get some stuff in china, which I wish wasn't necessary, but it's all in the interest of getting good stuff to DIYers at a decent cost.  Remember when you used to pay $160 for a dirty old t-pad on ebay?

The forum has grown.  It's inevitable that some people are not going to like it.  Fortunately, we are starting to have good discussions about how he can affect positive change instead of *****ing and moaning.

Mike

 

[Echo North]

Also,  I've started visiting the Drawing Board more and more.  Good discussion in there.

 

[grantlack]

I don't understand the discussion / relationship with "clones".
Didn't all this start with Gyraf projects?
Aren't all those long active projects (at least simplified) "clones"?

yeah, it just seems to be another of the 'complaints du jour' and project dismissing tools that have crept up lately.  i've found it a bit convoluted.

Also,  I've started visiting the Drawing Board more and more.  Good discussion in there.

seconded!  there's been some good theory (and practice) talk of late from the usual suspects.  up the punx

 

[kepeb]

I agree on many points but these points should be aired if nothing more than that, and the brewery is definitely the place for it. the discussion is good and its not like its littering up the lab or your white market. so... as long as the brewery is still here...

Fresh and green or old and wise, there are currently major, visible, related changes occurring here. I have only been a member since 2010, true. I always thought discussion was welcome from all members.

After visiting quite a few times (even by accident) when searching for various different topics on google brought me here. I signed up to learn more about a neve circuit. thats fine. I have no issue with clones. I thought a good introduction would be some purchases from WM, this in turn contributed to the forum too.

If this isn't long enough or taking part enough or contributing enough to validate a members opinion then what am I missing? that time machine discussed earlier?
I don't think so. I Wasn't even suggesting or referring to any mythical 'good ole days' either.
But in my opinion two poor, related decisions have been made.
Its not gonna kill me or the forum.
Just saying what I'm seeing.
cheers.

 

[ruffrecords]

Free Market = If people want to pitch in for a one-time group buy to lower the price of the boards when ordering...or...If you want to give them away.

Can you be more specific about what you mean by one-time. Suppose a group of people want to buy some components and do a FM group buy to get a good price. Then after that buy is done a load of other people want to buy the same components - would that be allowed?

Cheers

Ian

 

[Ethan]

@Ian, Yes.  However each group buy should have a deadline date (as indicated in the FM guidelines). Obviously, we could wax philosophic about several potential grey area situations, but keep in mind that the main objective is to prevent blatant 'sales ventures' from being disguised as 'group buys'.  I think defining a deadline for each group buy will help with this.  However, if the same person keeps organizing the same group buy repeatedly, I think that would be cause for some concern.

I'm relying on some amount of common sense and good faith among members...