US Shut-Down

[JohnRoberts]

I take your environmental and ecological points, they are valid but not insurmountable.  Animal migration paths could be left open and they would leave officers free to concentrate on these areas.

The cultural make-up of central America does not seem capable of generating good crime free governance.

A little too simplistic analysis.. The rule of law and personal security is hard to enforce when domestic economies are dominated by drug cartels. That is not even the citizens fault, we are their customers, they are just meeting a market need we create. If we stopped consuming so many drugs they would stop selling it and grow coffee again.    8)

The legalization of pot has upset that part of drug trade but drug dealers don't change their spots and abandon a working business so now they import fentanyl and whatever to sell to our kids.

El Chapo (big drug lord) is on trial in NYC and testimony was given in his trial that he gave the past president of Mexico a $100M bribe. This is unconfirmed but not beyond belief. 

Should the US intervene? 

that has been our policy for well over a century (?)..  President Truman actively opposed communism in South America, and IIRC Roosevelt was active too (Rough Riders)...  We have always had an attitude about other world powers messing around in our America(s). That however doesn't stop them and Russia and China are both active in trying to win influence in our hemisphere. (google Cuban missile crisis for some '60s drama, but lots more since then.)

I doubt it would be popular with anyone.  So what to do?  Pour money into them that gets syphoned off to corruption and drug barons?

That is pretty much what happens to all the money we are now sending... I forget the numbers, but more than half of El Salvador is controlled by MS-13 gang organization, not real local government.

If you can't take out the bad guys, all you can do is bolt the door I guess.  As the saying goes:-
If you keep doing the same things, you get the same result.  Got any ideas?

DaveP

We need to fix south/central America too, but they are not actively plotting to kill us at the moment (priorities).

Reducing trade friction will help all world economies (and people) but probably too little too late for desperate people living in parts of central America.

First we need to fix the easy stuff, and that is not that easy in this current political climate. It seems like slow motion but a lot has already been accomplished. Imagine what we could do if the two sides weren't actively trying to make each other fail. The left wing, and right wing, are on the same bird, try flying straight with that handicap.

JR

 

[zamproject]

Hello

Not sure what "advanced countries" includes, but its pretty common practice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_budget

(your location says France, so - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_France)

Its not something I have deeper knowledge of, but I am cant think of  a democratic alternative/model off the top of my head.

Gustav

The budget in question there is related to expenditures that need to be voted ; all recurrent expenditures (salaries, maintenance, operational costs...) are covered on the basis of the n-1 budget.

Don't know either what an advanced countries is, but for what I know most EU countries (France for sure...) have prime minister, chef of the government, who represent the MAJORITY of the chamber (the "low" one in france) ... so the budget is presented by the majority (government) for the majority (representatives)... the budget vote can't technically fail... and the president have nothing to say about it if (s)he is in the opposition.

n-1 budget votes is for sure a safer move but not the reason for "automatic approval", at least for Marcel Land 

I'm not a specialist in US politics (so correct me if i'm wrong) but the president is also the chef of government, and there is no automatic "link" with the representatives who vote the laws or budget... that's the system issue here...

Best
Zam

 

[abbey road d enfer]

most EU countries (France for sure...) have prime minister, chef of the government, who represent the MAJORITY of the chamber (the "low" one in france) ... so the budget is presented by the majority (government) for the majority (representatives)... the budget vote can't technically fail...

That's correct; it's extremely doubtful a budget would get repelled. For sure it has never happened in the past AFAIK, but it's not an impossibility. That would block any new expenditure, but civil servants would have their salaries and invoices would be paid (as usual 6 months late ).

 

[pucho812]

I was born and raised in brownsville tx. I still go back home and visit my folks who still  live there.  McAllen were trump went to visit is an hour up the road. We seem to be the goto when they want to talk the border.  Something needs to be done.
Seems to me trump wants to do something and the opposition does not want him to fulfill a campaign promise.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Hello

Don't know either what an advanced countries is, but for what I know most EU countries (France for sure...) have prime minister, chef of the government, who represent the MAJORITY of the chamber (the "low" one in france) ... so the budget is presented by the majority (government) for the majority (representatives)... the budget vote can't technically fail... and the president have nothing to say about it if (s)he is in the opposition.

n-1 budget votes is for sure a safer move but not the reason for "automatic approval", at least for Marcel Land 

I'm not a specialist in US politics (so correct me if i'm wrong) but the president is also the chef of government, and there is no automatic "link" with the representatives who vote the laws or budget... that's the system issue here...

Best
Zam

I think you have it correct.. Elected separately, since the recent mid term election the lower house of legislature is controlled by the opposition party, while the upper house is controlled by the same party as the president. Both houses need to approve the budget. They have already passed separate spending bills for parts of the budget so those parts are signed, funded, and operating.

Several times in the past the legislature has passed continuing resolutions to continue funding per the old budget for a limited time, in effect postponing the budget fight for several months. This time the sticking point is a relatively modest amount of money in the context of the total budget ($5B), but apparently politically important as it includes a campaign promise made by the President (securing the Southern border).

The government shutdown is an extreme measure to drag the public into this dispute and rarely lasts this long. It appears both sides think they have winning hands so this could go on a little while longer.

Both sides are raising campaign funds from this and the media is stirring the pot for ratings, not a pretty picture or healthy combination. This too will pass, likely with some compromise, at least that is how it should work. I try not to predict specific outcomes other than that this too will end, probably with both sides disappointed (and both declaring victory).

JR

 

[sodderboy]

Both parties of Congress own these stinkers-
they’ve been talking border/immigration  security for decades but it behooves the swamp creatures of both sides not to do anything, hence nothing done for 30 years and glaringly nothing done the past two years with Paul Ryano as House Speaker.
Add to that it’s Congress’ #2 job to pass a budget for the President to sign every year, something that Congress has not done for over a decade. They have been passing Continuing Resolutions for George W Bush’s last signed budget for over 11 years! Obama’s first budget was such a joke that Congress mutually agreed to point fingers at each other while the other hands were pleasuring their”rival”.  They can tweak $$ up and down for their respective pet concerns without taking a principled stand.  They live above “healthcare insurance” and social security with their own funded plans separate from their constituents. Who needs bread when you have cake and eat it too?
These facts are not being discussed at all anywhere in the media.  US citizens have no idea what Congress is supposed to do, they are all bunched up against each other ideologically rather than putting their elected officials on blast.
Congress has failed in their top two duties and eventually the shutdown will expose it. 
Their selfish political posturing  inertia is causing this. A President at the beginning of his third year is calling BS on it.
They are off the Constitutional tracks and a continued shutdown will reveal it.
Mike

 

[living sounds]

By making immigration the most visible issue attention is deflected from a long list of actual and far more relevant problems.

And what Trump wants is not to solve the actual problems with immigration, but to waste taxpayer money on an unrealistic and mostly symbolic project.

Democrats have no choice to block this. If they didn't, he would next try to get away with more and other useless and damaging policies.

For the people still supporting Trump on the other hand, it's not about actual issues but tribal identity.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Both parties of Congress own these stinkers-
they’ve been talking border/immigration  security for decades but it behooves the swamp creatures of both sides not to do anything, hence nothing done for 30 years and glaringly nothing done the past two years with Paul Ryano as House Speaker.
Add to that it’s Congress’ #2 job to pass a budget for the President to sign every year, something that Congress has not done for over a decade. They have been passing Continuing Resolutions for George W Bush’s last signed budget for over 11 years! Obama’s first budget was such a joke that Congress mutually agreed to point fingers at each other while the other hands were pleasuring their”rival”.  They can tweak $$ up and down for their respective pet concerns without taking a principled stand.  They live above “healthcare insurance” and social security with their own funded plans separate from their constituents. Who needs bread when you have cake and eat it too?
These facts are not being discussed at all anywhere in the media.  US citizens have no idea what Congress is supposed to do, they are all bunched up against each other ideologically rather than putting their elected officials on blast.
Congress has failed in their top two duties and eventually the shutdown will expose it. 
Their selfish political posturing  inertia is causing this. A President at the beginning of his third year is calling BS on it.
They are off the Constitutional tracks and a continued shutdown will reveal it.
Mike

+1

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

By making immigration the most visible issue attention is deflected from a long list of actual and far more relevant problems.

Immigration is up there for a relevant (unresolved) problem. Neither party seems willing to change the status quo that both believe benefits them.

And what Trump wants is not to solve the actual problems with immigration, but to waste taxpayer money on an unrealistic and mostly symbolic project.

Are you agreeing with me about the symbolic aspect of the "wall"?  8) That said it is not a waste of money, but would actually reduce the cost of policing that southern border.

Democrats have no choice to block this. If they didn't, he would next try to get away with more and other useless and damaging policies.

We are watching different movies again, but the opposition is making their preferences known for better and worse.

For the people still supporting Trump on the other hand, it's not about actual issues but tribal identity.

I find statements like that remarkable... You do not know what you think you know, or perhaps you think I don't even know my own motivations. 

There are a lot of people fed up with the political elite. Drain the swamp...

JR 

 

[living sounds]

That said it is not a waste of money, but would actually reduce the cost of policing that southern border.

Please have a look at this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/03/03/the-biggest-problem-with-trumps-border-wall-isnt-money-its-getting-the-land/?utm_term=.700fb81c0c9d

People own the land the wall is supposed to be built on - and they won't go quietly into that good night.  Do you see the irony WRT to the anti-government rethoric usually dispensed by Republicans.

It may take decades to take all the land. And make the projekt far more costly.

And when it's finally built people will simply fly over the wall with a drone or get to the US by boat or by tourist visa or through a tunnel or...

Come on, you know a concrete wall is actually a really stupid thing. We had one here in Germany (and only in a small part) and were very happy to get rid of it.

 

[dmp]

A talking point seems to be Democrats voted for a wall so it’s hipocracy not to support it now. It was 25B for a border wall in exchange for a DACA fix. That was soundly rejected by Republicans.  The Democrats picked up 40 seats in the house opposing the wall. The American people voted both ways. Which is why it’s not getting done.

Yup - and it's incredible how many people are oblivious to this. Trump has walked away from compromise many times. I think Trump wants a battle over a wall more than he actually wants a wall. He doesn't care about the wall, it was a good slogan in his campaign and now it represents winning for him.
And Trump's ego demands a win-lose.
Not a compromise (win-win).

And anybody that actually thinks illegal immigration is a problem, look into these questions:
- it's a much more significant problem at airports (drug smuggling / visa overstays). Why no talk about addressing that?
- illegal immigrants don't steal jobs from Americans, business leadership breaks the law by firing Americans and replacing them with people that are illegal to employ. Why not address this with enforcement? If businesses faced a punitive hard stick on it, the problem would change very quickly.
- How can anyone seriously expect Trump to address the problem when his businesses employed illegal immigrants?

Democrats have made a good faith effort to reform immigration several times.  Democrats don't have as much to lose though since immigrants tend to vote Dem. The Republican party doesn't have any good option other than keeping it as a polarizing political issue. That is the biggest gain out of the immigration debate for Republicans. 

And the US shutdown is driven by anti government sentiment that has been fostered by conservative media for decades. Look back 30 yrs to Reagan saying Government was the problem. That's a key part of this.

 

[L´Andratté]

Drain the swamp...

That would be great, but...
It won´t happen. Not from within that "system".
I simply can´t understand what gives you the idea, that Trump is any different?
Pissing on the carpet maybe amusing but it is not an act of renewal.

I don´t get it. Maybe it´s me.  I think he´s a billionaire, making a lot of blue-sky promises, that cost him nothing.
You can build all the walls you like, that won´t change anything in the dynamics that spin the world around. And why would he change that.

We´ll see. Siempre hay esperanza :-\

 

[scott2000]

- illegal immigrants don't steal jobs from Americans, business leadership breaks the law by firing Americans and replacing them with people that are illegal to employ. Why not address this with enforcement? If businesses faced a punitive hard stick on it, the problem would change very quickly.
-

I think living in areas where immigration has been around a long time brings other views into this.

If you have to get something done to your home, and it's half as much cost to go with one guy over the other. They feel good with those free vistaprint cards.....Usually enough for them.....funny thing is, it doesn't even take a discount of half anymore......just give me something for less is usually good enough.....

It's not that bad for me personally. I like having a reason to look for other avenues of work in my field anyhow. My body can't take the work like it used to....

And I feel bad for people in general that need to eat or feed their families regardless if they are here illegally or not.  But, don't think businesses are the only people who might look at things similarly.

 

[dmp]

I think living in areas where immigration has been around a long time brings other views into this.
If you have to get something done to your home, and it's half as much cost to go with one guy over the other. They feel good with those free vistaprint cards.....Usually enough for them.....funny thing is, it doesn't even take a discount of half anymore......just give me something for less is usually good enough.....
It's not that bad for me personally. I like having a reason to look for other avenues of work in my field anyhow. My body can't take the work like it used to....
And I feel bad for people in general that need to eat or feed their families regardless if they are here illegally or not.  But, don't think businesses are the only people who might look at things similarly.

I live way up north but it's pretty obvious  on construction sites and other typical jobs. It's not something that exists just on the southern border.
Maybe someone who thinks this wall is needed can explain why we should fight to close the border while allowing this system of illegal employment to continue, which gives incentive to people to attempt to cross? I understand the hypocrisy  - people want cheap services. Lawn care, roofing, child care, home cleaning, field labor, etc...
But it is such a ridiculous, comical, screwed up system.
Imagine applying this policy to other issues. Incentivize bad behavior,  minimize enforcement in key ways, create a wedge political issue, fight over ineffective enforcement methods.
I personally favor a reasonable immigration policy that lets in more people than currently, but through similar mechanisms (family, highly trained, lottery) and real enforcement of the law. Immigration should not be tied to employment or status like the current H1b or work permits, since it puts downward pressure on wages. Some amnesty could be done to address your last point.
The fact of the matter though is building a wall is not an efficient way to address enforcement.

 

[JohnRoberts]

That would be great, but...
It won´t happen. Not from within that "system".
I simply can´t understand what gives you the idea, that Trump is any different?

You don't think he's different.  :

He is clearly not a politician but unfortunately learning politics on the job.

A businessman sees a problem and looks for a solution. A politician sees a problem and looks for ways to exploit it to gain power/influence ("You never let a crisis go to waste." Rahm Emanuel, but even Churchill said something similar).

Pissing on the carpet maybe amusing but it is not an act of renewal.

I missed that... sounds amusing.

I don´t get it. Maybe it´s me.  I think he´s a billionaire, making a lot of blue-sky promises, that cost him nothing.
You can build all the walls you like, that won´t change anything in the dynamics that spin the world around. And why would he change that.

He has actually accomplished a bunch, and unlike other elected officials is actually trying to keep campaign promises.  Don't expect to hear reports of his positive accomplishments from an unfriendly media.

We´ll see. Siempre hay esperanza :-\

Sorry I do not understand that, and don't care enough to look it up. "Siempre" looks like mangled Latin for always, other words do not look like Latin, or derivative.

JR

 

[Matador]

"Siempre" looks like mangled Latin for always, other words do not look like Latin, or derivative.

It's Spanish, and means "There's always hope".  Mangled Latin indeed!  'Hay' is the present form of 'to be', which comes directly from Latin 'ahi' (or 'there').  Esperanza (hope) comes from Latin 'sperantia', or 'sperare' (to hope).  Your comment reminds me of Steve Martin's joke, "It's like those French have a different word for everything!".

If this was such an emergency, nobody (including Trump) has been able to explain why he walked away from $25B in border funding in exchange for not vetoing DACA protection.  This doesn't look like "a businessman seeking solutions" from my point of view.

But whatever, I wish I could see this great movie 34% of the people agree is the best thing in the world.

 

[scott2000]

I live way up north but it's pretty obvious  on construction sites and other typical jobs.

Right....

I'm just talking in general when private citizens are looking to hire people. Especially when the citizens have a certain outlook on what matters to them in regards to hiring someone. It's really just a part of life when it reaches a certain point......etc....there is enough private work being done to support this ..and it's a pretty large portion of how people make a living....

It's the citizens who are supporting this more than is being talked about was my point somewhat....You can clamp down on businesses and there should be rules but, it's not going to change people wanting to come here as much as is being said imo....They can have a better life legally or illegally here and that's just reality........ there's plenty of support for these people either knowingly or unknowingly......


It's quite different where I live as opposed to how it was even 10-15 years ago... Totally different world in regards to all of the immigration from central America.....businesses,culture,language ,etc.....

.. It's all good with me.... I know some of the drawbacks and consequences and their reality and see the benefits too.  I'm not convinced the rest of the country realizes enough yet to collectively come to some common understanding based on what it can become if not talked about.... I could be wrong...

I think it's just quite different.....not saying it's bad ...........
In Brownsville TX, their drug problem may be helped by adding barriers....But IDK.... Seems from some of the videos I see that they can be effective in certain regards.... My big thing is all of the drugs... It's a shady thing...., I've seen the reality of junk it can create. Anything to help with that is ok with me.... I just hope the huge money being made on them isn't affecting some people's judgment too much where it interferes with making the right decisions for security....

And I do think the issues of the tax immigration has on the budget is something to be worked through..... I'm not sure of the arguments on both sides but, I think it pretty much  does in fact cost more money than we take in to keep on the current path.... I'm not sure though.... but it should be worked out.....

Interesting times for certain.....

 

[cyrano]

You know what’s funny?

There’s an ad in this thread atm that reads “Apply for immigration into Canada”...

 

[JohnRoberts]

It's Spanish, and means "There's always hope".  Mangled Latin indeed!  'Hay' is the present form of 'to be', which comes directly from Latin 'ahi' (or 'there').  Esperanza (hope) comes from Latin 'sperantia', or 'sperare' (to hope).  Your comment reminds me of Steve Martin's joke, "It's like those French have a different word for everything!".

Most romance languages are derived from latin...

I can drink in spanish from time spent in Mexico.

If this was such an emergency, nobody (including Trump) has been able to explain why he walked away from $25B in border funding in exchange for not vetoing DACA protection.  This doesn't look like "a businessman seeking solutions" from my point of view.

But whatever, I wish I could see this great movie 34% of the people agree is the best thing in the world.

Looks like government is open again, without an emergency declaration.

JR

 

[Matador]

Indeed!  It looks like we get until Feb 15th to plan for the next shutdown.