US Shut-Down

[JohnRoberts]

It seem disingenuous to use the worst example of something to reduce ad absurdum any particular advocacy for an economic system:  by this same logic, capitalism cannot work because in Somalia, which has completely open markets and no regulation, people rob each other in the streets and are locked in perpetual conflict.  Ergo, capitalism cannot work? 

OK show me all the examples of successful strictly socialist governments.

Even I am getting tired of this but how many times have I said property rights "and" rule of law. Without rule of law how can you have property rights? ... You are the one reducing this to absurdity.

Are all automobiles  doomed to be called trash because of the Chevy Vega or the AMC Gremlin?  Do we not visit doctors any more because once they bled people with leeches?  Are we not allowed to pick and choose parts of different systems which have proven to work, and use those to inform our choices?

avoid debate, all the fallacies could hurt ya....

For the record, the number of mainstream politicians in the US advocating for a Venezuelan-style dictatorship numbers exactly zero.

Another straw man, i never said that either. 

The people advocating for socialism describe it in much nicer terms (what could possible go wrong? Let me list the obvious examples).

The promise always sounds better than the reality.  Nobody signed on for those bad outcomes.

JR

 

[DaveP]

I dispute the ever-better-getting human conditions, I come from a country where a lot of people are so oversaturated they don´t even notice the luxury they live in. They don´t seem so happy. Me, I´m like that myself in a way, too.
The First World is mostly a lonely and depressing place these days, you don´t see too many lighthearted people, only same raveling in selfgrandeur.

I too realised this during my time in  the Congo, I saw people literally dirt-poor sitting down pounding maize with beaming smiles.  There is one kind of stress that comes from toiling in the fields and an altogether different kind of stress from the daily commute and inescapable emails and texts.  I think we may have to return to a simpler lifestyle to survive as a race.

DaveP

 

[scott2000]

I think we may have to return to a simpler lifestyle to survive as a race.

"A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil"

 

[living sounds]

OK show me all the examples of successful strictly socialist governments.

Show me the examples of strictly capitalist governments.

All economically successfull nations are far, far away from either strictly laissez-fare or communist.

What works is a market economy with reasonable regulations. Which includes government-funded research, redistribution via taxation, government-run or at least -supported infrastructure etc.

Everyone should do themselves a favour and read Michael Lewis most recent book "The Fifth Risk" to understand just how much the US government does for you (in the US).

Places like Hickory, Mississippi were looking much worse if the US government (in other words, taxpayers elsewhere in the country) wouldn't pay for much needed infrastructure, which includes health-care and social services.

Ironically the people in areas with the most conservative voting patterns, hating the government, cursing Washington, decrying "Socialism" and “Take Your Government Hands Off My Medicare”, are the ones most dependent on it and profiting the most from it.

These are just the facts.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Show me the examples of strictly capitalist governments.

Two hunters are in the woods and see a big angry black bear approaching. One hunter drops his rifle and puts on his running shoes. The other hunter says "what are you doing , you can't outrun a bear?" He replied, "I just have to outrun you".  ;D

It is all relative, and we have been more than  a little pregnant with socialism for several decades, but less socialist than many (so far).

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

We are still coasting on the momentum from a couple centuries of remarkable economic growth, thanks to capitalism. That growth with all its benefit is at risk of being frittered away.

All economically successfull nations are far, far away from either strictly laissez-fare or communist.

Hong Kong and Singapore IIRC were/are pretty strict examples of capitalism (HK is a work in process since China got it back, and they are trying not to lose the lightning in a bottle that was HK's economy), but we can't completely conflate governance with economic systems, they are two different things while capitalism appears most compatible with democracy, IMO.

I am not yet ready to give up my belief that democracy is, as Churchill quipped, the worst form of government known to man, except for all the others.

What works is a market economy with reasonable regulations.

I have long conceded that capitalism requires some regulation to prevent excesses. Even worse when big business coopts government it reduces opportunity for new smaller innovative businesses. The nordic countries often cited as examples of successful socialism are actually capitalist but combine high tax rates with high entitlements. They do like to tax the wealthy heavily but Sweden for one is now rolling back too high corporate tax rates.

Which includes government-funded research, redistribution via taxation, government-run or at least -supported infrastructure etc.

Ironically perhaps government trust busters broke up Bell Laboratories the premier R&D facility for its time. Likewise government infrastructure like the interstate highway system (pioneered by President Eisenhower) was influenced by the German autobahn and its military utility as discovered by then General Eisenhower during WWII. The interstate highway system was great for the economy and personal freedom but that is not why it was built.

Redistribution sounds good on paper but we must be careful we don't strangle the golden goose that wealth comes from. I won't post the cliche quotes about that but you can google Margaret Thatcher for a good one. It is not a zero sum game as too high taxation discourages marginal wealth creation.

(I am currently reading Pinker and one observation about wealth inequality is that it is not caused by greedy, evil individuals, but by the invisible hand of free markets and many individuals pursuing their own self interest. So no actual bad guys to blame, but the wealthy have targets on their back for being personally successful).

Everyone should do themselves a favour and read Michael Lewis most recent book "The Fifth Risk" to understand just how much the US government does for you (in the US).

I am familiar with the general argument.

Places like Hickory, Mississippi were looking much worse if the US government (in other words, taxpayers elsewhere in the country) wouldn't pay for much needed infrastructure, which includes health-care and social services.

I am not sure about "worse", but sadly my federal government representatives brag about how much federal pork they bring home, because it resonates with low information voters, who don't realize it is at least in large part our own money often being wasted or spent unwisely by federal government largess.  I have repeated this story too many times but my local "clean coal" power plant is burning NG because clean coal is too expensive even with an already built clean coal plant.   The worst part is how much money was literally wasted building this white elephant in large part because of changing government regulations about "clean coal" while it was being built.  As a ratepayer I will be saddled with making good on the $Billions of wasted money sunk into this failed gee whiz project. If I were to believe your scenario I should expect the federal government to cough up the x$B cost overruns they arguably caused (while that utility's parent company has a poor track record with other large power generation projects).

Ironically the people in areas with the most conservative voting patterns, hating the government, cursing Washington, decrying "Socialism" and “Take Your Government Hands Off My Medicare”, are the ones most dependent on it and profiting the most from it.

Ah "clutching our guns and bibles.."  :  I still have my childhood bible but don't clutch either.

I am still waiting to profit from some of that federal redistribution. I earned my wealth the old fashioned way, from employment, good investments, frugal spending, and recently from operating my own business (anybody want to buy a drum tuner that doesn't suck?). I don't even take the homestead exemption that would lower my property taxes because I can see how poor my community is and they can use the extra few dollars a year more than me. I believe my local town government is current trying to get a federal grant to help pay for replacing an aging water main system, but haven't got it yet AFAIK.

I do know some people here who profit from federal government programs. Back when I was still playing basketball one young adult I played with bragged about the federal government was paying all the rents in a tenement apartment building he owned (like printing money as he described it).  I have some neighbors whose conspicuous consumption makes me suspicious but I don't know or care enough to investigate.

My older brother is about to buy his second Tesla to replace his wife's EV with 100k miles. He ironically benefits thousands of dollars from taxpayers (but he lives in CA not MS). Do people buying Tesla's really need tax breaks? In fact after that tax break was reduced Musk dropped his car price, so that was just extra gravy flowing from taxpayers to his bottom line. 

These are just the facts.

One man's opinions are another man's facts. Your facts are mixed with opinions, in my opinion.  8)

JR

PS: It looks like the election of Donald Trump has other wealthy business men looking to do the same. At least Howard Shultz of Starbucks (starburnt?)  should be able to perform simple budget math and understand business economics. I will try to ignore his abuse of good coffee... It's bad enough that they systematically over roast coffee beans to reduce extreme flavor notes, now in china they just announced they will serve the coffee at higher temperatures to still be hot/warm after an Uber delivery ride.  They need to be very careful, besides the McDonalds lawsuit from customers being burnt, too hot coffee brewing temperatures can cause untoward chemical changes that harm coffee flavors.  The former tea drinkers may not notice.

 

[iturnknobs]

It would seem that the inflow of immigrants is not as much of a safety issue, but a law enforcement issue. There are many undocumented workers in our country... good or bad. You decide. The real problem is that the administration pushing the wall won't push prosecution of those who employee these people.  Previous administration's have not either... but then again, they didn't feel the need to build a wall over ideologies. Take away the incentive, and the problem will improve vastly. One would think a game show host in charge of the most powerful country in the world would know this, but, screwing everyone except the people who are the primary catalyst in this situation seemed to be the way to make the point of pure, unadulterated misunderstanding.
Was this an example of being tired of winning or surrounding oneself with nothing but the best people?

 

[JohnRoberts]

It would seem that the inflow of immigrants is not as much of a safety issue, but a law enforcement issue. There are many undocumented workers in our country... good or bad. You decide. The real problem is that the administration pushing the wall won't push prosecution of those who employee these people.  Previous administration's have not either... but then again, they didn't feel the need to build a wall over ideologies. Take away the incentive, and the problem will improve vastly. One would think a game show host in charge of the most powerful country in the world would know this, but, screwing everyone except the people who are the primary catalyst in this situation seemed to be the way to make the point of pure, unadulterated misunderstanding.
Was this an example of being tired of winning or surrounding oneself with nothing but the best people?

Again check your facts    https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-01-22/is-ice-finally-targeting-employers-of-illegal-workers    I hope this isn't fake news too.

The Trump administration appeared to take a step toward that goal this month, launching a widely publicized series of raids at close to 100 7-Eleven locations in towns and cities across the country.

The action was not the first large-scale workplace crackdown by Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents under Trump – they previously raided eight Asian restaurants in Mississippi last February, for example, apprehending 55 people suspected of being in the country illegally. But it hit far more locations and was among the most widely publicized. And it also appeared principally aimed at employers.

Of course comprehensive immigration reform has several moving parts and big business likes cheap labor.  The democrats need to be willing to bend a little too..

As a nation we need more immigrants to support economic growth (we are not reproducing fast enough). They need to be legal and respect our laws to really contribute to a better future for them and us.

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

In order to not repost material which is cherry picked to make a point, I will just say that only approximately 250 people and 1 company were referenced. Not only is big business the biggest problem, but its biggest supporters are generally capitalist and Republican. Shooting oneself in the foot doesn't generally seem to be a conscious practice. Said example is just another talking point. Not real reform. There is not enough propaganda in the world to frighten me into agreeing to a wall similar to he one that was torn down in 1989 or 1990. After all, anyone who voted for the current blasphemy should be IRATE. We were ALL told Mexico was footing the bill. Never Forget 11/16.

 

[iturnknobs]

...not quite sure how Asians working in an Asian restaurant corrolate to a southern border wall related to safety concerns causing a government shutdown. We would then need a comprehensive bubble around our entire country... protected by The United States Space Force.

 

[JohnRoberts]

...not quite sure how Asians working in an Asian restaurant corrolate to a southern border wall related to safety concerns causing a government shutdown. We would then need a comprehensive bubble around our entire country... protected by The United States Space Force.

It doesn't.....

Political bloviating reduces everything the most basic simplistic levels possible for low information voters. Then opposing politicians bat these simplistic talking points back and forth.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

In order to not repost material which is cherry picked to make a point, I will just say that only approximately 250 people and 1 company were referenced.

I guess 100 seven-eleven locations is arguably one business.  AFAIK this is a relatively new initiative.

Not only is big business the biggest problem, but its biggest supporters are generally capitalist and Republican. Shooting oneself in the foot doesn't generally seem to be a conscious practice. Said example is just another talking point. Not real reform. There is not enough propaganda in the world to frighten me into agreeing to a wall similar to he one that was torn down in 1989 or 1990. After all, anyone who voted for the current blasphemy should be IRATE. We were ALL told Mexico was footing the bill. Never Forget 11/16.

Talk about repeating talking points.  :

Do not be afraid.

JR

 

[scott2000]

Not only is big business the biggest problem, but its biggest supporters are generally capitalist and Republican.

Take away the incentive, and the problem will improve vastly.

really?

California is poised to become the first state in the nation to offer full health coverage to undocumented adults

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/21/california-health-care-immigrants-trump-598037

NYC to Fund Health Care for All, Including the Undocumented, Mayor Says

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-08/nyc-to-fund-health-care-for-all-including-the-undocumented

 

[sodderboy]

The health of Cubans!  Fantastic!

It has to do with a diet, somewhat limited, of simple wholesome foods, climate, and they are walking or biking everywhere.  It has nothing to do with how great their government "healthcare" system is.  If the Castros ever fall, Cubans will become as healthy as Puerto Ricans!

Regarding the cost of illegal immigration that article does not take into account the cost of incarceration of illegals, the time spent by cops investigating crimes committed by them, and the opportunity cost of the lives damaged or lost due to their crimes.

How many hospitals in CA have closed in communities due to the cost burden?  Look that up.

It is much simpler to strengthen the border, reduce incentives for people to come here illegally, and increase the system bringing them here legally. 

The secret is that both political sides do not want a tight border or proper immigration system.  That's why very little has been done.

I've spent time on both sides of Die Mauer in the 80's and 90's.  My point was addressing a comment dissing "concrete" not pro or con the same DDR security on our own borders. 

The media is filming DC foliticians and pundits more than the actual folks working the border.  Even when NPR interviews them they have to include the fact that the agents say that increased barriers designed to specific areas will help them manage their human resources better.

Mike

 

[cyrano]

The health of Cubans!  Fantastic!

It has to do with a diet, somewhat limited, of simple wholesome foods, climate, and they are walking or biking everywhere.  It has nothing to do with how great their government "healthcare" system is.  If the Castros ever fall, Cubans will become as healthy as Puerto Ricans!

Diet has something to with it.

But you seem to have no idea about medical research in Cuba. Because they were blocked from buying a lot of stuff, they had to be inventive.

A few years ago, with one of the first outbreaks of ebola in Africa, Cuba was one of the nations that sent a large volunteer team of doctors. They also had one of the drugs that could save some of the victims.

Of course, the mainstream press didn't report about this, except in scornful ways. But the Lancet did. And that drug is now being further developed, by an Italian company, IIRC.

Regarding the cost of illegal immigration that article does not take into account the cost of incarceration of illegals, the time spent by cops investigating crimes committed by them, and the opportunity cost of the lives damaged or lost due to their crimes.

How many hospitals in CA have closed in communities due to the cost burden?  Look that up.

If US hospitals are forced to close down, it's usually because of some treatments being horribly expensive. And these are horribly expensive because big pharma can hike prices as they like.

It is much simpler to strengthen the border, reduce incentives for people to come here illegally, and increase the system bringing them here legally. 

Walls have never worked. Look at history.

The secret is that both political sides do not want a tight border or proper immigration system.  That's why very little has been done.

Both sides just want to get re-elected. Not uncommon for politicians.

I've spent time on both sides of Die Mauer in the 80's and 90's.  My point was addressing a comment dissing "concrete" not pro or con the same DDR security on our own borders. 

Then you should know firsthand walls don't work...

The media is filming DC foliticians and pundits more than the actual folks working the border.  Even when NPR interviews them they have to include the fact that the agents say that increased barriers designed to specific areas will help them manage their human resources better.

Mike

What do they mean with "human resources" in this case?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Diet has something to with it.

But you seem to have no idea about medical research in Cuba. Because they were blocked from buying a lot of stuff, they had to be inventive.

A few years ago, with one of the first outbreaks of ebola in Africa, Cuba was one of the nations that sent a large volunteer team of doctors. They also had one of the drugs that could save some of the victims.

As I have already shared, doctors and healthcare works are one of Cuba's major exports. It was a Cuban doctor in 2014 cured by an experimental (Canadian) drug, in a hospital in Geneva, after he contracted ebola working in west Africa.

Of course, the mainstream press didn't report about this, except in scornful ways. But the Lancet did. And that drug is now being further developed, by an Italian company, IIRC.

do you have a link... google is not aware of that drug?

If US hospitals are forced to close down, it's usually because of some treatments being horribly expensive. And these are horribly expensive because big pharma can hike prices as they like.

a little more complicated than that, but we are wealthy and subsidize a lot of drug R&D that the rest of the world doesn't pay.

Walls have never worked. Look at history.

Which history... ? The great wall of China ultimately did not keep the nation isolated, but it served the primary purpose for centuries.

More recently the wall built by Israel to control to control unwanted infiltration seems to be working in part, but the wall does not stop rockets/missiles.

Both sides just want to get re-elected. Not uncommon for politicians.

oh oh,  we agree about something.... 

Then you should know firsthand walls don't work...

The wall dividing  east/west Berlin worked until it was torn down when the government changed and abandoned locking its own citizens inside.

What do they mean with "human resources" in this case?

Border patrol personnel..

Physical borders with fixed entry points funnel or channel migrants to specific places to cross the border that can be easily monitored and controlled much less expensively.

They say that walls (physical barriers) work, and help them do their job. That is their occupation and I see no reason for them to lie about that.

It seems like common sense to me but that can be in short supply in the swamp.

JR 

 

[cyrano]

As I have already shared, doctors and healthcare works are one of Cuba's major exports. It was a Cuban doctor in 2014 cured by an experimental (Canadian) drug, in a hospital in Geneva, after he contracted ebola working in west Africa. do you have a link... google is not aware of that drug?

Try using Google Scholar. Google doesn't know about an awful lot of things, especially if they're not in English. Unless you use google.fr for French, or whatever. And even then, it might not show up.

a little more complicated than that, but we are wealthy and subsidize a lot of drug R&D that the rest of the world doesn't pay. Which history... ?

"We"? If you mean big pharma, OK.  But big pharma hasn't got any loyalty to the USA. They go where the taxes are the lowest, as you well know. Also, big pharma doesn't seem to have a lot of morality either, judged by the current plague of painkiller addiction.

Our govt just took the socialist decision to buy a bunch of new scanners for "our" hospitals. They'll be a lot cheaper bought in numbers. All parties agreed this was necessary to avoid even more costs in the future.

In the same fashion, drug prices are controlled and not every drug is allowed by the social security system, which leads to discontent in some cases. But it also means that most of our drugs cost less than half of what they cost in the USA. Note that we often avoid US drugs, because others are equally effective, but far cheaper.

The great wall of China ultimately did not keep the nation isolated, but it served the primary purpose for centuries.

The Great Wall suffers from two popular misconceptions; It isn't visible from space as is often reported. And it never served it's purpose. It took many centuries to build. It didn't work while they were building it and it was destroyed as a demonstration of power by the people it was supposed to be keeping out when it wasn't even completely finished. Some historians even consider that they wouldn't have attacked China if there wouldn't have been a wall. The Great Wall was a clear example of  Emperors that had no idea about the needs of their people because they lived in splendid isolation. Their court went out of their ways to keep the emperors isolated from the people, out of self-interest.

There's a lot of these folk tales out there. Like lemmings committing suicide if the colony becomes to big. That's one invented by Disney, with the aid of some dynamite, to film the poor buggers.

You see, John, the real way Lemmings keep their numbers under control, doesn't fit the American image. The female leaders of the colony eat newborns when there are too many. They get help from their secondants. Of course, the fact that the colony is led by females doesn't fit the image and eating their young doesn't either. But that's the way nature works. The rest is a projection of human emotion.

More recently the wall built by Israel to control to control unwanted infiltration seems to be working in part, but the wall does not stop rockets/missiles.

That wall isn't doing much. Even the Mossad and Haaretz have stated that. Haaretz called it a "symbol of ignorance".

The wall dividing  east/west Berlin worked until it was torn down when the government changed and abandoned locking its own citizens inside.

And that wall didn't work either. Tens of thousands of the DDR's citizens crossed it. Or was that hundreds of thousands?

Border patrol personnel.

Physical borders with fixed entry points funnel or channel migrants to specific places to cross the border that can be easily monitored and controlled much less expensively.

They say that walls (physical barriers) work, and help them do their job. That is their occupation and I see no reason for them to lie about that.

I don't doubt that they're not lying. At the same time, I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to judge the problem. Wouldn't they be absolutely biased? Just like soldiers in a war they need to be indoctrinated to be able to carry out such an inhumane job.

The crux of the matter is that people will be moving from around the equator to the north (and in the southern hemisphere to the south). They are driven by war,  poverty, famine...

Nothing will stop these people. Some things might slow them down a bit. But they'll keep at it.

Wouldn't you move if your life was at stake?

There's only one thing that would stop them. Death.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Try using Google Scholar. Google doesn't know about an awful lot of things, especially if they're not in English. Unless you use google.fr for French, or whatever. And even then, it might not show up.

If it is so easy (and exists) you could provide a link.

"We"? If you mean big pharma, OK.  But big pharma hasn't got any loyalty to the USA. They go where the taxes are the lowest, as you well know. Also, big pharma doesn't seem to have a lot of morality either, judged by the current plague of painkiller addiction.

In hindsight the medical community (doctors prescribe them too) is culpable for underestimating how addictive the opioids are. The drug industry is an industry with profit incentives. If anything they are guilty of believing their own BS (about addiction).

Never said it was about company loyalty, it is a government decision to not drive down prices to the point they stop developing new drugs. 

I wouldn't mind forcing drug companies to have a world price so we pay the same as other countries, but several countries do not respect drug IP so that may still not work.

Our govt just took the socialist decision to buy a bunch of new scanners for "our" hospitals. They'll be a lot cheaper bought in numbers. All parties agreed this was necessary to avoid even more costs in the future.

good for them... but that sounds like a capitalist decision (quantity buy ).

In the same fashion, drug prices are controlled and not every drug is allowed by the social security system, which leads to discontent in some cases. But it also means that most of our drugs cost less than half of what they cost in the USA. Note that we often avoid US drugs, because others are equally effective, but far cheaper.

good if you can get them, and they are safe... There are reportedly bad drugs coming from China, cheap because they are not effective, but I suspect many are OK.  At the moment there is a recall of a blood pressure medicine because of cancer linked contaminants. Valsartan, irbesartan and losartan are angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARBs

The agency says it continues to investigate how these substances got into ARB drug supplies, and is working to stem the flow of potentially tainted pharmaceuticals from overseas manufacturers. Many of the affected ARBs came from producers in China and India, according to FDA recall notices, and the FDA warned one Chinese manufacturer about “significant” production issues last year.

 

The Great Wall suffers from two popular misconceptions; It isn't visible from space as is often reported. And it never served it's purpose. It took many centuries to build. It didn't work while they were building it and it was destroyed as a demonstration of power by the people it was supposed to be keeping out when it wasn't even completely finished. Some historians even consider that they wouldn't have attacked China if there wouldn't have been a wall. The Great Wall was a clear example of  Emperors that had no idea about the needs of their people because they lived in splendid isolation. Their court went out of their ways to keep the emperors isolated from the people, out of self-interest.

I didn't say it was visible from space, but perhaps with radar imaging, from space shuttle Endeavor.

I have read the art of war about three times so far, and several books about China. Their civilization has been around a very long time, and gone through many periods. 

There's a lot of these folk tales out there. Like lemmings committing suicide if the colony becomes to big. That's one invented by Disney, with the aid of some dynamite, to film the poor buggers.

You see, John, the real way Lemmings keep their numbers under control, doesn't fit the American image. The female leaders of the colony eat newborns when there are too many. They get help from their secondants. Of course, the fact that the colony is led by females doesn't fit the image and eating their young doesn't either. But that's the way nature works. The rest is a projection of human emotion.

another answer to a question I didn't ask.

That wall isn't doing much. Even the Mossad and Haaretz have stated that. Haaretz called it a "symbol of ignorance".

I suspect they say much worse because it does work.

And that wall didn't work either. Tens of thousands of the DDR's citizens crossed it. Or was that hundreds of thousands?

and many lost their lives trying.

I don't doubt that they're not lying. At the same time, I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to judge the problem. Wouldn't they be absolutely biased? Just like soldiers in a war they need to be indoctrinated to be able to carry out such an inhumane job.

um no... They have a task and can easily see what makes their job harder to accomplish, and what would make it easier. Of course the coyotes and drug cartels would adjust and adapt, so just part of the total solution. 

The crux of the matter is that people will be moving from around the equator to the north (and in the southern hemisphere to the south). They are driven by war,  poverty, famine...

not sure what it is about the equator that causes that... Tropical storms can be devastating, but don't cause war.

Nothing will stop these people. Some things might slow them down a bit. But they'll keep at it.

We have accepted immigrants for most of our relatively brief history (only a few centuries), but we expect immigrants to obey the rules and follow our laws.

Wouldn't you move if your life was at stake?

I have moved several times for far lesser reasons.

There's only one thing that would stop them. Death.

I am not suggesting that, while a number do die trying. Likewise many die trying to get to Europe from Africa.

Perhaps helping establish rule of law that could help reduce the poverty and poor outcomes in regions from lawlessness. Direct aid is often stolen by corrupt leaders, or worse. 

We cannot be the world's cop even in wishful thinking on the WWW. We already do too much. 

JR

 

[cyrano]

If it is so easy (and exists) you could provide a link. In hindsight the medical community (doctors prescribe them too) is culpable for underestimating how addictive the opioids are. The drug industry is an industry with profit incentives. If anything they are guilty of believing their own BS (about addiction).

Just saw a head in the US press stating that the family who owns the companies producing Oxycontin knew about addiction and that they are being sued. Don't know if it's true, didn't even read the article. But it sure doesn't sound right.

I'll see if I can dig up a link. Don't remember where I've read it tho. Could be paper...

Never said it was about company loyalty, it is a government decision to not drive down prices to the point they stop developing new drugs. 

Don't make me laugh...

One of the cies that invested very hard in safe medicine here, Janssen Pharma was swept up by a US company. The first thing they did was end all research. The once great company that was a world leader in antifungal medicine (there's not much companies around specialising in it), is nothing more than a sales office.

I wouldn't mind forcing drug companies to have a world price so we pay the same as other countries, but several countries do not respect drug IP so that may still not work.good for them...

Oh, come on, John.

If a company raises the price of a medicine by a 1000% or more while research has been long paid for, they have no moral right to protection. It's a clear case of extortion of people who are suffering.

What happened to the CEO of that US Pharma company who did that a few years ago? Did he end up in jail? Don't remember, but there sure was a public outcry I could hear this end of the pond. And now there's an Italian company suffering the same PR disaster and possibly the same legal trouble.

but that sounds like a capitalist decision (quantity buy ).

It's a restricted price. Call it what you will. At the same time, the company is more or less safe from competition, as the profit margin is lower.

good if you can get them, and they are safe... There are reportedly bad drugs coming from China, cheap because they are not effective, but I suspect many are OK.  At the moment there is a recall of a blood pressure medicine because of cancer linked contaminants. Valsartan, irbesartan and losartan are angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARBs)

There are hardly any Chinese drugs on the EU market. Cosmetics, yes, food supplements certainly, but not medicine. Our rules are very strict and they differ from country to country. If you don't follow the rules, out goes the license. If there are Chinese drugs coming into the EU, it's via eBay, AliBaba and a lot of very small internet sites. Not a lot in the grand picture, not refunded by social security, but sometimes dangerous.

I didn't say it was visible from space, but perhaps with radar imaging, from space shuttle Endeavor.

I didn't say you said it, just that it was one of the popular misconceptions.

I have read the art of war about three times so far, and several books about China. Their civilization has been around a very long time, and gone through many periods.

Yes, I agree. Not the easiest culture to comprehend. That's why there are so many misconceptions about China, and Asia in general.

[/quote]another answer to a question I didn't ask.[/quote]

Just an example to try explain how these misconceptions come into existence. It's not a grand conspiracy, just wishful thinking, or being polite to the (TV) viewers.

I suspect they say much worse because it does work. and many lost their lives trying.

There are doors in this wall. Each and every time an attack occurs, the attackers came through the door, or went around the wall...

That's why it's complete ignorance, John.

Another example of sheer stupidity is that Denmark is actually going ahead with just another wall between Germany and Denmark. Not to keep refugees out, mind you.

To keep wild boar out. Denmark has a large pork industry. The right wing wants to protect that industry. Nothing wrong with that. Only, they completely ignore the facts:

- Wild boar are good swimmers. The fence would end both sides in the sea. It's not common for wild boar to swim, but they've been observed to do it.

- There is no Asian swine flue in Germany. A number of cases have been spotted in Belgium (seemingly the military brought it back, illegally transporting wild boar they had shot). We have a large pork industry too. But none of our pork got infected and some wild boar will be killed. We had too many for the few acres of forest we still have over here anyways.

um no... They have a task and can easily see what makes their job harder to accomplish, and what would make it easier. Of course the coyotes and drug cartels would adjust and adapt, so just part of the total solution.

The military know that you have to indoctrinate the average human, or they will not kill a fellow human. Hence what they call "training". If you don't indoctrinate, you end up with a majority of sociopaths, as they are the only ones who enjoy a task like that. From over here, it looks like border patrol agents just might have a large percentage of sociopaths in their midst.

not sure what it is about the equator that causes that...

Africa has been destroyed by European colonials. I don't mean the people have been destroyed, but the culture has been. That leaves a lot of problems because most of these countries (with borders created by Europeans) need to find an own identity and build a new culture. As long as their natural resources are being robbed by international corporations, they'll remain poor. We gave them modern medicine, so their numbers increased. You might even say exploded. The net result is famine.

The first pan-African aid organisation was shot down by the USA when they killed Kadhaffi. The billions in gold he was putting into it, simply vanished.

The same is true for South and Middle America. First ramsacked by the conquistadores, then made sick by European diseases the native population had no resistance for. After that, plundered for fruits and oil.

Now, to top it off, global warming and pollution. And a modern fishing fleet from Spain and a few others killing fishing grounds.

Tropical storms can be devastating, but don't cause war. We have accepted immigrants for most of our relatively brief history (only a few centuries), but we expect immigrants to obey the rules and follow our laws.I have moved several times for far lesser reasons. I am not suggesting that, while a number do die trying. Likewise many die trying to get to Europe from Africa.

Most refugees follow the rules, John. But the minority that doesn't, gets into the news.

Perhaps helping establish rule of law that could help reduce the poverty and poor outcomes in regions from lawlessness. Direct aid is often stolen by corrupt leaders, or worse.

The most succesfull action to slow down emigration in Morocco, financed by the EU, was giving poor people in Morocco bricks and mortar, literally. The Moroccan govt supplied the land. Not entirely free, but affordably financed. That got a 85% result, meaning only 15% of the money was lost.

As a contrast, a UN aids program for Lebanon from the same period got a 45% result. Meaning over half of the money never got to the people who needed it. This was for poor farmers in the Bek'aa valley. Famous for growing weed and producing hashish.

However, that still got toppled by the US expenditure to stop poor farmers in Afghanistan from cultivating poppies. In 2016, the USA spent 5.5 billion $ on that program. 2016 was a record year for the opium production...

We cannot be the world's cop even in wishful thinking on the WWW. We already do too much. 

Keeping the hawks and their military out of foreign nations would already go a long way, I suspect.

Most part of it, isn't the people in the military. The vast majority are decent, good people. But a few at the top are completely rotten to the bone.

Remember when they had to transport a container of $ bills to Iraq? There was a lot of fighting between the military and the CIA. In the end, the military were deemed to be the better equpped ones for such a job. Reasonable, I guess.

Only, they "lost" the container and it's 5 billion content. Mind you, no heads rolled over it. It just got a minor mention in some news media.

Recently, they seem to have lost much more. But nobody is reponsable for it.

Can you get that?

I can't.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Your version of reality is more interesting sounding than mine...

JR

 

[cyrano]

Sorry, John, no link yet.

Did some research: the Canadian ebola vaccine was first developed and tested on humans in Cuba. They passed it on to the Canadian govt cause the had no efficient production method. The Canadian govt licensed it to a small cie that developed a production method, based on genetic engineering. That method was then further licensed to Merck.

I found two references: One is simply a  reading list on a local edu server. It's a bunch of links with a short paragraph describing why you should read them. In that paragraph. The test
Ing in Cuba is mentioned. However, when I pull up the paywalled article on Elsevier's site,  all references to Cuba are gone. The document has been edited 3 months after publication. There's no reason for the edit mentioned, which is rare.

The other mention is in Google scholar's short description of the article in question, which hasn't been updated because the article is paywalled...

This is the link to Google scholar:

https://scholar.google.be/scholar?hl=nl&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=cuba+ebola+vaccin+canada&btnG=

The title is "Nieuwe vaccins". It mentions Cuba in the description and so does the list (in Dutch).

When I have some more time, I'll see if I can find something that isn't paywalled and in English.