We really need to start having a serious conversation about this....

[crazydoc]

If you compare the bot, it spreads the same ideas Bill Gates, Soros, and all the leftists loonies are spreading, I mentioned this since post one.

No, it talks like an authoritarian autocrat. You think that's leftist loonie, I think it's rightist.
So be it - I don't want to instigate Godwin's law here.

 

[Matador]

I don't want to instigate Godwin's law here

If the polished boots fit...

 

[user 37518]

I've said it multiple times in this and other threads, Woke (which includes "climate change") is a religion.

 

[cyrano]

Sigh...

Anything is a religion if you're a believer.

Once we drop our scepsis all bets are off. And since in a polarised society, a vast majority only reacts to who is bringing the message and not what he's saying, science is dead.

Trump might have had a good idea, once in a while. But that doesn't matter as he is already vilified.

The same goes for Biden, but it's "the other side" doing the vilifying.

That leads to a stand-still. Which in the current situation isn't really what we need.

When we add the really agnostic, aka the capitalists, who only believe in themselves, we're in a right mess. They have the power to buy anyone, anytime and they will do so, driven by their own desires. Legal or illegal doesn't matter to them as they can easily move to another country and hire the best legal advice. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.

-Robert A. Heinlein

As sodderboy alluded to, from the point of view of the oppressed (and by this I mean people like North Koreans, Chinese under the CCP and not American university students) it makes no difference if the authoritarian state is "left" or "right." In fact, at the extreme, there is no discernable difference in economic or personal freedom so the other axis of 2D political models collapses at the authoritarian end.

The most stable societies are built on a foundation of individual freedom and responsibility. When a majority of the citizenry are taking care of themselves and their family/circle of friends, less government is required and fewer resources are wasted. Most people have skin in the game and are motivated to keep the stable system operating.

Calling this "selfish" is ignorant, IMO. You can't build a civil society of humans based on government largesse. You can build an authoritarian system that lasts for some time (China, NK, CCCP, Nazi Germany), but I would hope most would prefer to avoid those options. Sometimes I wonder.

 

[cyrano]

There is much more difference between young and old than between communist and fascist.

Stop labeling people.

 

[user 37518]

There is much more difference between young and old than between communist and fascist.

Stop labeling people.

What are you talking about? Young and old what? Which people is he labeling? University students?

 

[AnalogPackrat]

There is much more difference between young and old than between communist and fascist.

Stop labeling people.

Discernment, discrimination, labeling, and comparison are the basis of human intelligence and evolution in general. This chunk of wood lying on the ground is not a danger to me. That wiggly stick (snake) over there will kill me. We have survived and evolved by noticing important differences and ignoring unimportant ones. Higher intelligence is distinguished by the ability to communicate such knowledge and information to others, most notably younger individuals so that they can learn without risk of death and injury. This is how civilization came to be.

It is pure folly to pretend that all discrimination and description is evil and that the young cannot learn from the old.

 

[scott2000]

I just pm'd JR to see if things are ok where he's at. Those storms were pretty bad . Looks like the Rolling Fork destruction was a couple of hours away from where he is...

 

[cyrano]

Ouch. Was that tornado in his area. I hope he's well too.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I just pm'd JR to see if things are ok where he's at. Those storms were pretty bad . Looks like the Rolling Fork destruction was a couple of hours away from where he is...

It tracked well north of me.

if a one mile wide tornado only killed 25-30 people it did not strike a very populated area. I have lived in MS over 30 years and never even heard of the two towns that got wiped out.

I now return you to the never ending arguments.

[edit- that's what I like about tornadoes... even a 1 mile wide storm will only do localized damage. Of course you don't want to be in that locale. /edit]

JR

 

[cyrano]

What are you talking about? Young and old what? Which people is he labeling? University students?

"royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth"

Young and old people, obviously.

 

[cyrano]

Discernment, discrimination, labeling, and comparison are the basis of human intelligence and evolution in general. This chunk of wood lying on the ground is not a danger to me. That wiggly stick (snake) over there will kill me. We have survived and evolved by noticing important differences and ignoring unimportant ones. Higher intelligence is distinguished by the ability to communicate such knowledge and information to others, most notably younger individuals so that they can learn without risk of death and injury. This is how civilization came to be.

I don't think you understand evolution. It's about the success of a species, not individuals. So any new ability is only important to evolution if it can be copied by others. No matter how good an idea is, it is of no value if you keep it to yourself.

It is pure folly to pretend that all discrimination and description is evil and that the young cannot learn from the old.

I never said that. You quoted Robert Heinlein: "Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria."

Labelling is part of the process of polarisation. Good and bad. Us and them.

Liberal is perhaps the clearest example of how useless labels are since it means "left" in the US and "right" in Europe.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I don't think you understand evolution. It's about the success of a species, not individuals.

Reproduction, propagation occurs between individuals in most higher organisms. Where an individual has acquired (via mutation, luck of the prior reproductive cycle, etc.) an advantage and manages to pass it on via reproduction, that advantage is propagated and multiplied.

So any new ability is only important to evolution if it can be copied by others.

Copied by reproduction between two individuals, a male and a female of the species. Abilities (i.e. learned behavior) may be passed along by communication between individuals and if intergenerational, the learning is passed on (in humans, development of persistent storage of knowledge by writing, drawing, etc. which was a huge amplifier of advantage).

No matter how good an idea is, it is of no value if you keep it to yourself.

Obvious. What does this have to do with the discussion?

I never said that. You quoted Robert Heinlein: "Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria."

You'll note that others had also posted and my response was not completely directed at what you wrote.

Labelling is part of the process of polarisation. Good and bad. Us and them.

It is a (necessary) part of successful survival and development. Like most things, it can have side-effects, unintended consequences, and be misused. It is up to the individual to regulate his/her own behavior.

Liberal is perhaps the clearest example of how useless labels are since it means "left" in the US and "right" in Europe.

Classical liberal is very different from the perjorative "liberal" as used of late in the US. Most so-called liberals in the US are leftist and have authoritarian tendencies. In Heinlein's view they are part of the "control others" group (along with a lot of neocons, IMO). I prefer the more descriptive 2D political model, but sometimes fall back to 1D generalizations as do others here.

 

[Matador]

It's about the success of a species, not individuals.

Many people aren't aware of Darwin's full quote regarding evolution:

One general law, leading to the advancement of all organic beings, namely, multiply, vary, let the strongest live and the weakest die. However the most successful publish books that sell millions of copies, like my "Origin of the Species", so fuck you, I've got mine.

 

[Tubetec]

Often its the winners who dictate what gets published in print ,
how that stands up over time varies ,
most of Darwins supositions have stood the test of time , very very resiliantly ,
thats not always the case .

Eamon Devalera , even though he was maybe one of the most successful politicians this country ever had , by his own admition said relating to Micheal Collins ,
Quote: “It’s my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Collins and it will be recorded at my expense.”
He got that right , the more that comes to light in relation to what took place afterwards in the institutions of the state , under the auspices of the catholic church , the more the public sentiment has shifted to thinking Collins was the better man .
Devalera struck a deal with the devil , sold peoples souls to maintain his own position and power , perhaps even conspired against Collins because he knew he would never agree with the inside deals he did behind the peoples backs .
We are where we are now , we cant turn back the clock , what we can do is be a little less buttheaded in relation to how history played out .
What goes around comes around , were destined for a sizemic shift at the next election in this country , the limp dick coalition we have now cannot last indefinately , the writings on the wall but were heading into unknown territory .

Perhaps the title of this thread could have been chosen more carefully , its ended up a bit of a catch all , but in any case the less time we spend tossing shite over the fence to the other side the more productive the discussion .

 

[JohnRoberts]

Many people aren't aware of Darwin's full quote regarding evolution:

I couldn't find that FU citation...

Often its the winners who dictate what gets published in print ,
how that stands up over time varies ,
most of Darwins supositions have stood the test of time , very very resiliantly ,
thats not always the case .

Eamon Devalera , even though he was maybe one of the most successful politicians this country ever had , by his own admition said relating to Micheal Collins ,
Quote: “It’s my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Collins and it will be recorded at my expense.”
He got that right , the more that comes to light in relation to what took place afterwards in the institutions of the state , under the auspices of the catholic church , the more the public sentiment has shifted to thinking Collins was the better man .
Devalera struck a deal with the devil , sold peoples souls to maintain his own position and power , perhaps even conspired against Collins because he knew he would never agree with the inside deals he did behind the peoples backs .
We are where we are now , we cant turn back the clock , what we can do is be a little less buttheaded in relation to how history played out .
What goes around comes around , were destined for a sizemic shift at the next election in this country , the limp dick coalition we have now cannot last indefinately , the writings on the wall but were heading into unknown territory .

Perhaps the title of this thread could have been chosen more carefully , its ended up a bit of a catch all , but in any case the less time we spend tossing shite over the fence to the other side the more productive the discussion .

I haven't told this story lately, but years ago when I still read the local news paper (one a week on Sundays for the comics) I wrote a letter to the editor when some fellow citizen complained about teaching evolution in schools, blaming it for children's bad behavior. I strongly offered a different opinion supporting the teaching of Darwin to children... I was a little surprised when the slow thinker called me up at home to discuss (the newspaper printed my name and town).

Long story short, I told him to disregard me and believe everything that his church was telling him I didn't need another friend.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

The FU addition seemed spurious to me too but I didnt bother core drilling down into it ,

Back in the old days if you had the name and address the local telephone directory was likely to put you in direct contact with the person . We were always ex-directory at home due to some of the more politically sensitive elements of my dads job ,
They must have decided your soul needed saving from the burning fires of hell that they had to go to the trouble of calling you up,
A small while after my mom passed away I got a letter addressed to the occupier ,at my old address .
Turned out it was the local branch of the Jehovas , the local minister would ocassionally turn up for a pint in the local pub , I was going to pull him aside and scare him shitless but in the end I decided , nah why bother , if he had tried to convert me he would have had a big job on his hands .

My dad was born again in the religious sense many years back , he spent years trying to cajole us into Gods great white blinding light , he evetually tired of getting steam hammered into the ground and gave up trying , we get on a lot better now .

 

[Tubetec]

I was involved in running a chat room at one point in time , I had a few others helping out as moderators but they had no powers to boot people , they only needed to encouraged people to behave .
I usually just appeared as a normal chatter until trouble showed up , when it did I'd quickly login as administrator anonimously under another name and I had it rigged so video and sound effects from Hellraiser would start playing . The offender and my admin name would vanish off the screen , it saved the mods from having to do any dirty work or having to field abusive messages later .

Theres was a handfull of very very unpleasent people turned up in chat rooms I was in over the years , they could hop I/P address so banning had no effect whatsoever , they'd systematically set about undermining the entire room , the mods and admins , and sometimes even manage to usurp control . Even though I had nothing to do with the running of the room Id go in and verbally disintegrate them , they went out with their tails between their legs for a finish ,
Ok I ended up with a few extra grey hairs for my trouble but such is life .

 

[cyrano]

Reproduction, propagation occurs between individuals in most higher organisms. Where an individual has acquired (via mutation, luck of the prior reproductive cycle, etc.) an advantage and manages to pass it on via reproduction, that advantage is propagated and multiplied.



Copied by reproduction between two individuals, a male and a female of the species. Abilities (i.e. learned behavior) may be passed along by communication between individuals and if intergenerational, the learning is passed on (in humans, development of persistent storage of knowledge by writing, drawing, etc. which was a huge amplifier of advantage).

Getting desperate, are we?

Lotsa words, but evolution is still about the species, not the individuals. The sexual reproduction system than can be between two individuals, but has nothing to do with Darwin's theory.

Classical liberal is very different from the perjorative "liberal" as used of late in the US. Most so-called liberals in the US are leftist and have authoritarian tendencies. In Heinlein's view they are part of the "control others" group (along with a lot of neocons, IMO). I prefer the more descriptive 2D political model, but sometimes fall back to 1D generalizations as do others here.

If all you've got is fascism, everything else is left-wing.