We really need to start having a serious conversation about this....

[AnalogPackrat]

Getting desperate, are we?

Hardly. Perhaps you'd explain where I was wrong.

Lotsa words, but evolution is still about the species, not the individuals. The sexual reproduction system than can be between two individuals, but has nothing to do with Darwin's theory.

Species evolve by the mechanism of individual mutations and mating acting on large populations and/or over long time periods where the environment provides challenges. That is it in a nut shell. Tell me where I'm wrong.

If all you've got is fascism, everything else is left-wing.

When you're so far left, the big fat center looks like Fascism. Or when life has no real challenges we create them to give us some windmills to tilt.

 

[ruffrecords]

Too much eristicism.


Cheers

Ian

 

[user 37518]

My dad was born again in the religious sense many years back , he spent years trying to cajole us into Gods great white blinding light , he evetually tired of getting steam hammered into the ground and gave up trying , we get on a lot better now .

Sorry to hear that, I truly mean it, I don't know the context of it, but I can relate. Also, Ireland used to be a very religious nation, I don't know exactly what happened, but over a relatively few years span it has abandoned all faith, which I think is a shame; I also think it has been detrimental for its citizens. I wish you well.

 

[Tubetec]

Life isnt always a straight road to our destination , theres many turns , loop backs , hills , mountains and dead ends along the way . Sometimes we have to take two steps back just to start making progress once again .

The catholic church here in Ireland has been responsible for horrendous attrocities( reasons for this are universally known and need no further explanation ) , no one in their right mind would join the priesthood now , in fact the last Irishman to be ordained a priest here was an ex IRA bombmaker .
Covid has conspired to drive many more old an infirm people away from worship ,
this just hastens their and the churches demise . Its anticipated that very soon the church will need to employ lay people just to keep the doors open .

The subtleties of my Joycean turn of phrase probably dont translate very well , even native English speakers may have trouble grasping the nettle ,
Abandoning belief in organised religion isnt the same as loss of faith or spirituality. The loss of a place of worship that brings people who ordinarily live in isolated rural places together will have a catastrophic effect , the void thats been created by covid is being filled with prescription medications , this was all part of the masterplan .

 

[user 37518]

The catholic church here in Ireland has been responsible for horrendous attrocities( reasons for this are universally known and need no further explanation ) , no one in their right mind would join the priesthood now , in fact the last Irishman to be ordained a priest here was an ex IRA bombmaker .
Covid has conspired to drive many more old an infirm people away from worship ,
this just hastens their and the churches demise . Its anticipated that very soon the church will need to employ lay people just to keep the doors open .

I am an extremely devout Catholic (in case you haven't already taken a hint from my avatar and signature), I am what some define as a "Traditional Catholic" or a "Rad Trad" (both are titles which I dislike; titles that have been and continue to be sometimes used as either slurs or boastful banners, but that, nevertheless, portray me and what I believe very well). However, what you just said about the Catholic Church is, sadly, correct for the most part. I might sound like a conspiracy theorist, but this is no conspiracy, there is a lot of hard evidence to back it up: there has been an infiltration in the Catholic Church during the last 120-150 years or so, and, on top of soft leadership and a general loss of faith among the clergy, it has been responsible, to a large degree, for its current state of affairs. You don't need to look very far, just a couple of months ago a priest in the US was sentenced because he was having some sort of satanic sexual ritual on the altar of a Catholic Church with two dominatrices.

There is a lot going on in the Catholic Church, much more than the sex scandals covered by the media. I have been reading like crazy, and researching the causes and the current situation in the Church for a long time; it has been quite revealing. And, in fact, it has just strengthened my faith more. I guess that it is the product of knowing the root(s) of the problem and understanding it more profoundly.

 

[user 37518]

So I wasn't deluded when I said that ChatGPT sounded like a leftist. Apparently, the creators had to "de-wokefy" it a bit after some suggestions.

 

[cyrano]

Hardly. Perhaps you'd explain where I was wrong.


Species evolve by the mechanism of individual mutations and mating acting on large populations and/or over long time periods where the environment provides challenges. That is it in a nut shell. Tell me where I'm wrong.

That's like saying an amplifier works with transistors.

There's much more involved in evolution. Not simply sex and DNA.

The same oversimplification that poisons American politics. Life is not binary.

When you're so far left, the big fat center looks like Fascism. Or when life has no real challenges we create them to give us some windmills to tilt.

Haha. Funny, albeit a bit childish, no?

 

[user 37518]

That's like saying an amplifier works with transistors.

There's much more involved in evolution. Not simply sex and DNA.

The same oversimplification that poisons American politics. Life is not binary.

Perhaps you could elaborate a bit. Seems so mysterious and gnostic.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

That's like saying an amplifier works with transistors.

Is it? Some amplifiers work using vacuum tubes. Optical amplifiers use neither. Your attempted analogy fails. What I said is accurate and you simply can't refute it.

There's much more involved in evolution. Not simply sex and DNA.

The rest is how changes from "sex and DNA" improve or degrade an organism's competitive advantage in its present environment. I also said that.

The same oversimplification that poisons American politics. Life is not binary.

Never said life or anything was binary. But some choices do have much better outcomes than others.

Haha. Funny, albeit a bit childish, no?

It is accurate.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Proving each other wrong does not make us right....

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Proving each other wrong does not make us right....

JR

There are other things happening beyond what you see here.

 

[cyrano]

You're obviously not only very smart, but also clairvoyant. Far beyond what my simple mind can handle. I'm out.

 

[Matador]

Far beyond what my simple mind can handle. I'm out.

It's probably for the best: it must be exhausting to be so wrong all of the time. I know I am!

I'll quote myself:

This is an audio-related website, yet you can get deconstructive feedback from people with extensive careers and PhD's in biology, virology, macro enonomics, comparative psychology, modern relativism, electrical engineering, physics, cosmology, political science, medicine, sociology, and even paleontology - often all from the same person as well.

 

[cyrano]

Perhaps you could elaborate a bit. Seems so mysterious and gnostic.

I'll give you an example why it isn't as simple as sex and DNA.

There are examples of organisms that acquire DNA from food. Or even from parasites. And vice versa.

There's a sea slug (Elysia viridis) in the Mediterranean. It's a slug, so sexual reproduction doesn't come into the picture. It feeds on a plant, digests it, obviously, but also acquires the DNA from the plant that allows it to produce it's own food by photosynthesis. It was the only example I knew for years, but several others have been observed in the last decade. It's not a simple transfer of DNA, but the animal has the necessary supportive systems for photosynthesis in it's own DNA, which allows it to use the plant's DNA to complete the photosynthesis process.

There are numerous examples of parasites using the hosts's DNA in all sorts of ways. To avoid detection by the hosts's immune system. Or to take control of the host's behaviour. And sometimes, the host's DNA leads to a new species or sub-species of parasite.

And since there are no known species without parasites, these DNA transfers play a significant role in evolution. In fact, most parasites have several DNA transfer systems aboard.

The last few years a number of other pathways for DNA "acquisition" have been found. None of them has got anything to do with sexual reproduction.

I won't even start about fungi, as that would sound far too "Avatar" for closed minds. We already know mycelia transport signals and even food or medicine between other species. There's ongoing research to see if it also transports DNA, or even basic amino acids that get somehow reassembled into new DNA. Research like this shows that evolution has far more aspects than simply "the survival of the fittest".

 

[JohnRoberts]

"closed minds"? can't stop the derogation....

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

You're obviously not only very smart, but also clairvoyant. Far beyond what my simple mind can handle. I'm out.

Again with the assumptions. Do you think that everyone who reads this forum also actively participates in every thread they browse? Then how do you know what they think? And you mockingly call me names because you cannot fathom something as simple as forum lurking.

 

[user 37518]

I'll give you an example why it isn't as simple as sex and DNA.

There are examples of organisms that acquire DNA from food. Or even from parasites. And vice versa.

There's a sea slug (Elysia viridis) in the Mediterranean. It's a slug, so sexual reproduction doesn't come into the picture. It feeds on a plant, digests it, obviously, but also acquires the DNA from the plant that allows it to produce it's own food by photosynthesis. It was the only example I knew for years, but several others have been observed in the last decade. It's not a simple transfer of DNA, but the animal has the necessary supportive systems for photosynthesis in it's own DNA, which allows it to use the plant's DNA to complete the photosynthesis process.

There are numerous examples of parasites using the hosts's DNA in all sorts of ways. To avoid detection by the hosts's immune system. Or to take control of the host's behaviour. And sometimes, the host's DNA leads to a new species or sub-species of parasite.

And since there are no known species without parasites, these DNA transfers play a significant role in evolution. In fact, most parasites have several DNA transfer systems aboard.

The last few years a number of other pathways for DNA "acquisition" have been found. None of them has got anything to do with sexual reproduction.

I won't even start about fungi, as that would sound far too "Avatar" for closed minds. We already know mycelia transport signals and even food or medicine between other species. There's ongoing research to see if it also transports DNA, or even basic amino acids that get somehow reassembled into new DNA. Research like this shows that evolution has far more aspects than simply "the survival of the fittest".

Nicely done, you have obviously put some effort into researching. However, from my point of view all your examples are describing micro-organisms. The examples you provided seem quite foreign to human life, or even animal life in general.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I'll give you an example why it isn't as simple as sex and DNA.

Which leaves out the other parts I mentioned including acquiring random mutations (by means other than reproduction) and using mutations to advantage (over individuals without said mutation). Please re-read my posts #314 and #321.

There are examples of organisms that acquire DNA from food. Or even from parasites. And vice versa.

I'm aware of some of these.

There's a sea slug (Elysia viridis) in the Mediterranean. It's a slug, so sexual reproduction doesn't come into the picture.

Really? Many mollusc species have male and female sexes. Others are hermaphroditic. Both types reproduce by sexual fertilization with the hermaphroditic going both ways simultaneously. The hermaphroditic species may self-fertilize when no mates are present, but this is not as advantageous as combining genes from two individuals.

It feeds on a plant, digests it, obviously, but also acquires the DNA from the plant that allows it to produce it's own food by photosynthesis. It was the only example I knew for years, but several others have been observed in the last decade. It's not a simple transfer of DNA, but the animal has the necessary supportive systems for photosynthesis in it's own DNA, which allows it to use the plant's DNA to complete the photosynthesis process.

Nothing I said before is at odds with this. I'm sure we'll discover other fascinating ways that mutations can be introduced.

There are numerous examples of parasites using the hosts's DNA in all sorts of ways. To avoid detection by the hosts's immune system. Or to take control of the host's behaviour. And sometimes, the host's DNA leads to a new species or sub-species of parasite.

And since there are no known species without parasites, these DNA transfers play a significant role in evolution. In fact, most parasites have several DNA transfer systems aboard.

Viruses are another source of mutations.

The last few years a number of other pathways for DNA "acquisition" have been found. None of them has got anything to do with sexual reproduction.

Yes, but this doesn't contradict anything I've posted.

I won't even start about fungi, as that would sound far too "Avatar" for closed minds. We already know mycelia transport signals and even food or medicine between other species.

Symbiotic relationships are very common. They don't contradict my posts.

There's ongoing research to see if it also transports DNA, or even basic amino acids that get somehow reassembled into new DNA. Research like this shows that evolution has far more aspects than simply "the survival of the fittest".

You've completely focused on various interesting ways that mutations can be introduced, but have ignored how these mutations are passed to the next generation.

Yes, there are lots of non-animal species that reproduce asexually, but they are often simpler organisms like bacteria and protozoa. Fungi are pretty interesting and we have a lot to learn about them. Plants can be propagated asexually (I have a lot of shrubs that were grown from cuttings of my Dad's shrubs, most of which he grew from cuttings from his and other family member's shrubs). The danger there being limited genetic diversity putting many individuals at risk from a pathogen that mutates to successfully infect.

So we were discussing Darwin's theory where advantageous mutations (no matter how they are acquired) of individuals are passed to the next generation where these offspring out-compete individuals without the mutation. Most higher organisms that Darwin studied reproduce sexually where more chance for advantageous modifications occur (and at every mating).

 

[hodad]

Nicely done, you have obviously put some effort into researching.

I'd say he has, but not specifically to answer you. I recommended a book to cyrano about parasites quite some time ago, so I don't think he went out of his way to do research just to post here. Parasites are actually pretty dang fascinating, and they are not all micro-organisms. And there are plenty that are hosted by humans, though less and less--in fact, there's been a general decline in parasites, which could very well pose a serious threat to non-parasitic species.

 

[user 37518]

I'd say he has, but not specifically to answer you. I recommended a book to cyrano about parasites quite some time ago, so I don't think he went out of his way to do research just to post here. Parasites are actually pretty dang fascinating, and they are not all micro-organisms. And there are plenty that are hosted by humans, though less and less--in fact, there's been a general decline in parasites, which could very well pose a serious threat to non-parasitic species.

Ok, but my observation still holds even if they are not micro-organisms, that behavior being described is completely foreign to large animals, such as whales, monkeys or whatever....