We really need to start having a serious conversation about this....

[AnalogPackrat]

Obviously, you haven't read the original paper on PNAS...

I did. But you missed my point. Humans have been affecting the earth for quite a while. The earth isn't dead.

And I have to ask the obvious: what are you doing about it? Directly. With your own personal decisions. I've been vegetarian since 1991. I've owned sizeable property since 1999 and have largely left it to be natural except for meeting California's wildfire protection mandates while I lived there, and providing for some gardening and fruit orchards where I now live. Except for invasive fireants, I use no poisons here. We have many birds, insects, snakes, lizards, as well as rabbits, deer, mice, voles, moles, squirrel, fox, coyote, bobcat, etc. that live on our 19 acres and other adjacent parcels.

I reduce, reuse, repair, and recycle. A lot of things I own and use are old. I fix things instead of trashing them and buying new. I mostly live on the trailing edge.

If more people would focus on their own direct decisions and lifestyle choices (e.g. walk their talk and set an example) instead of trying to tell others what to do we'd be better off.

 

[cyrano]

Humans have been affecting the earth for quite a while. The earth isn't dead

yet...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

yet...

Oh, that's certainly going to be the endpoint. No one argues against that. But the cause will be something other than humans. Nearby supernova, massive collision (asteroid, comet), super-volcano, or our star moving into red giant phase. It's more likely we'll off ourselves and do some short term damage while the ecosystem continues on without us before "the end."

A bit of a review of current understanding of Earth's history is pretty revealing. Pretending that we can somehow halt all change (human and non-human induced) is nothing but magical thinking and doomsday cultism.

 

[Tubetec]

We share a sizeable portion of our DNA with every other living thing on the planet , we might delude ourselves into thinking we can do no wrong but in the end whats bad for the goose is also bad for the gander .
At one point we used regularly spray the drive with weed killers of one sort or another , sure it kills off mosses lichens and weeds , but inevitably something else takes over from it ,
What I used see in the wake of the chemical treatments was an increase in a kind of green slimey growth , a bit like pond scum except it grows directly on damp stoney ground in the absence of other things , and obviously the chemical herbicides dont bother it one bit ,in fact they help it get a hold .

The whole subject of genetically modified crops being allowed intersperse with native species has been a disaster in many places , genetic markers have shown up in the native species which means the farmers involved either pay a royalty to Monsanto , or face legal action for growing a variety protected by a legal ring fence put in place decades before hand .
Taking away a peoples autonomy is the name of the game here , and taxing them on crops handed down through the generations . This is a crime against humanity itself and the people involved need to face tough action in an international criminal court , as weve seen though in the great war crimes tribunals , its the winners that get to re-write the history books in the end .

 

[user 37518]

.

If you add the oceans goin' bonkers, it might even happen during our children's lifetimes.

Our grandparents used to say the same thing, but here we are fine and dandy.

How many failed doomsday prophecies have been made by the"experts" just to fail miserably? I think they may have already surpassed the Jehovah's Witnesses in terms of failed prophecies, still, they keep going, because after their prediction fails, they can always make a new one set at 20 or 30 years into the future. If these guys were part of a religion, which I think that is exactly what this climate catastrophe and Earth worship is, a religion, I would say that it is a fake religion, or rather a cult.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Our grandparents used to say the same thing, but here we are fine and dandy.

How many failed doomsday prophecies have been made by the"experts" just to fail miserably? I think they may have already surpassed the Jehovah's Witnesses in terms of failed prophecies, still, they keep going, because after their prediction fails, they can always make a new one set at 20 or 30 years into the future. If these guys were part of a religion, which I think that is exactly what this climate catastrophe and Earth worship is, a religion, I would say that it is a fake religion, or rather a cult.

I remember back last century while I was working at Peavey.. a religious nut who worked in the print shop gave his fishing boat away, in anticipation of some end of the world forecast... when the calendar date came and went, and the world was still here. He asked for his fishing boat back.

JR

 

[Recording Engineer]

The difference between last century or general religious/cult wackiness is it’s so politically-polarized now, on purpose; from the far-left, who refuse to reasonably-grandfather anything in (they should strictly for financial and infrastructure reasons), as a political-strategy, and the far-right’s strategic-defense that it’s all about power and control of people’s lives. Both are BS politics propelled by 24-hour “news” and stemmed from some legitimate concerns or sometimes pulled out of thin air.

 

[boji]

TL;DW: glyphosates + chem farming = autoimmune/neuro diseases skyrocket

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw16LPVnNco

 

[user 37518]

I remember back last century while I was working at Peavey.. a religious nut who worked in the print shop gave his fishing boat away, in anticipation of some end of the world forecast... when the calendar date came and went, and the world was still here. He asked for his fishing boat back.

JR

classic!

 

[Tubetec]

The side effects of a single medication can vary enormously from person to person , theres no real way of quantifing the side effects of half a dozen meds all mixed in , so what happens is each time the patient returns to the clinic another medication is added to counteract the cocktail their already on , its tantamount to witchcraft .

 

[cyrano]

Our grandparents used to say the same thing, but here we are fine and dandy.

How many failed doomsday prophecies have been made by the"experts" just to fail miserably? I think they may have already surpassed the Jehovah's Witnesses in terms of failed prophecies, still, they keep going, because after their prediction fails, they can always make a new one set at 20 or 30 years into the future. If these guys were part of a religion, which I think that is exactly what this climate catastrophe and Earth worship is, a religion, I would say that it is a fake religion, or rather a cult.

If you think that, for instance, what's happening to the Sargasso weed sea on your coast is fine and dandy, that's fine with me.

It could be a natural cycle we never noticed before, but that part of the ocean has been studied for a long time, due to it being the mating ground for all eels in the world. So it is rather obvious this year's happening is new.

There's no doubt in my mind that it is due to nitrogen, for a large part from fertilizers. Direct human influence.

This year and for the first time, there's no salmon season in California. Fishing in Alaska is nearly wiped out. Etc. Over fishing and pollution are, again, direct human influences.

Also, real experts don't do predictions. And they get sued for it. Just look at the recent law suits against geologists, for not warning about eminent earth quakes. If you know a bit about earth quakes, you now that the time frame is something like "in the next 50 years". All of that is a sign of the change in perception of science itself. It used to be dangerous to be a scientist, due to religion. These days, there seems to be a lot of disdain for science, especially from people who haven't the faintest clue what science is. And that change stems from the USA, as Isaac Asimov and others have noticed.

In that sentiment, you're damned if you don't and you're damned if you do.

 

[cyrano]

The difference between last century or general religious/cult wackiness is it’s so politically-polarized now, on purpose; from the far-left, who refuse to reasonably-grandfather anything in (they should strictly for financial and infrastructure reasons), as a political-strategy, and the far-right’s strategic-defense that it’s all about power and control of people’s lives. Both are BS politics propelled by 24-hour “news” and stemmed from some legitimate concerns or sometimes pulled out of thin air.

That's only the start. There's an Israeli company boasting about the number of elections thy've meddled with worldwide.

Anything's for sale. Democracy has been priced down lately. For a few million, you can buy the next president.

I'm amazed by the people who think this isn't a problem.

 

[cyrano]

The side effects of a single medication can vary enormously from person to person , theres no real way of quantifing the side effects of half a dozen meds all mixed in , so what happens is each time the patient returns to the clinic another medication is added to counteract the cocktail their already on , its tantamount to witchcraft .

Even water can be deadly...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

If you think that, for instance, what's happening to the Sargasso weed sea on your coast is fine and dandy, that's fine with me.

It could be a natural cycle we never noticed before, but that part of the ocean has been studied for a long time, due to it being the mating ground for all eels in the world. So it is rather obvious this year's happening is new.

"New" in what temporal context?

There's no doubt in my mind that it is due to nitrogen, for a large part from fertilizers. Direct human influence.

Maybe.

This year and for the first time, there's no salmon season in California.

California is also banning gas water heaters, cooking ranges, and small engines. They ban everything in hair-on-fire panic overreaction

Fishing in Alaska is nearly wiped out.

According to whom?

Etc. Over fishing and pollution are, again, direct human influences.

If you want to talk about over-fishing look at the Chinese who break all of the international rules and commonly send fleets into other nations' territories to poach.

Also, real experts don't do predictions. And they get sued for it. Just look at the recent law suits against geologists, for not warning about eminent earth quakes. If you know a bit about earth quakes, you now that the time frame is something like "in the next 50 years".

When I moved to California in 1992 I was hyper-aware of earthquakes and followed all of the USGS and ABAG sources regarding risk, preparation, and their predictions. There were many "the SF Bay Area has a 90% probability of experiencing a m6.5+ event within 25-30 years. Well, the area has a large number of active fault complexes, 6M people, and covers a wide area, ~75 miles N-S by 30-40 E-W. Guess what? Nothing more than a few M4-M5 have occurred in the area since 1989. AFAIK the predictions are still being made.

All of that is a sign of the change in perception of science itself.

And the reasons are clear. Hubris being at the top of the list.

It used to be dangerous to be a scientist, due to religion. These days, there seems to be a lot of disdain for science, especially from people who haven't the faintest clue what science is.

And also by many who very well do know what science is. The problem, again, is that much of so-called science isn't. And ivory tower types who make grandiose claims and predictions cannot bring themselves to admit when they are wrong.

And that change stems from the USA, as Isaac Asimov and others have noticed.

Surely you jest.

In that sentiment, you're damned if you don't and you're damned if you do.

No, you're damned if you can't learn from your mistakes and can't bear to look yourself in the mirror and admit you were wrong. Hubris is killing science.

 

[user 37518]

If you think that, for instance, what's happening to the Sargasso weed sea on your coast is fine and dandy, that's fine with me.

It could be a natural cycle we never noticed before, but that part of the ocean has been studied for a long time, due to it being the mating ground for all eels in the world. So it is rather obvious this year's happening is new.

There's no doubt in my mind that it is due to nitrogen, for a large part from fertilizers. Direct human influence.

This year and for the first time, there's no salmon season in California. Fishing in Alaska is nearly wiped out. Etc. Over fishing and pollution are, again, direct human influences.

Also, real experts don't do predictions. And they get sued for it. Just look at the recent law suits against geologists, for not warning about eminent earth quakes. If you know a bit about earth quakes, you now that the time frame is something like "in the next 50 years". All of that is a sign of the change in perception of science itself. It used to be dangerous to be a scientist, due to religion. These days, there seems to be a lot of disdain for science, especially from people who haven't the faintest clue what science is. And that change stems from the USA, as Isaac Asimov and others have noticed.

In that sentiment, you're damned if you don't and you're damned if you do.

Bad things will happen, but to say that our children will experience the end of the world is a completely different story. I am not against predictions, but one should really think twice before saying that the world will end in 30 years, then 30 years go by, nothing happens, and say that in another 30 years it will definitely end.
The Sargasso is something unfortunate, but to say that my children will experience apocalypse due to it is insane.

 

[Tubetec]

Do not admit failure under any circumstance ,plow on regardless ,its the western way ?

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Do not admit failure under any circumstance ,plow on regardless ,its the western way ?

In my experience working in culturally diverse high tech, this mindset is not limited to "western" brains or western culture. In fact, cultures with much more ingrained hierarchy (e.g., South Korea, Japan) are far worse.

 

[user 37518]

It used to be dangerous to be a scientist, due to religion. These days, there seems to be a lot of disdain for science, especially from people who haven't the faintest clue what science is.

Do not be mistaken, science has become a religion for many. What old scientists like Newton thought when they heard the word science is very different from what people who worship science think today.

I love science, one Master's and a PhD in EE, and a soon to be second MSc can vouch for that. But that is precisely why I don't blindly trust science, because I have learned over the years that many of its premises are wrong, and especially that science is far from being infallible.

 

[Tubetec]

and then theres Papal infallibillity , that stretches truth beyond breaking point ,yet the Vatican has some of the best scientists on the planet .

 

[user 37518]

and then theres Papal infallibillity , that stretches truth beyond breaking point ,yet the Vatican has some of the best scientists on the planet .

Do you really want to go there? But, from the way you refer to Papal infallibility, it tells me you have no idea what you are talking about or what the Catholic Church refers to as Papal Infallibility, just to lead you in the right direction: Papal Infallibility has only been exercised once by a Pope in the last 100 year period; the last time IIRC was in 1950, and before that it was in the 1800s, I'll let yourself investigate what it was all about. So it is not like everything that the Pope says is infallible, but that is a common mistake that most people make when they know nothing about the doctrine of Papal infallibility.

Also, Papal infallibility only pertains to faith and morals (or the ruling of the Church), not to science, politics or any other matter. It also doesn't mean that the Pope can never err. A very special set of conditions must be met for something to be declared infallible, and, again, it is only regarding faith and morals or Church ruling, nothing else. And not in every speech or conference the Pope gives.

You probably thought you were making a great comeback to my "science is not infallible" argument, however, it would be a good idea for you to at least get acquainted with the concepts and doctrines of that which you wish to criticize or use as a counter argument beforehand, otherwise, it just shows that you are completely ignorant on that topic, as I have just pointed out.