What should we do with the Brewery?

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

What should we do with the brewery?

  • Shut it down

    Votes: 8 21.6%
  • Disallow political/ religious topics

    Votes: 8 21.6%
  • Leave it as it is

    Votes: 25 67.6%

  • Total voters
    37
Its really easy to not click on the political threads if you dont want to read them. While there are a fe members here that seem to turn everything ito a political commentary, I appreciate they they do it mostly in the political threads. :D
 
One issue with the "just ignore it" advice is that threads can turn political even when they aren't and even against the wishes of the original poster. Pucho posted a thread wishing safety for forum members in Ukraine and it took less than a single page of posts for it to turn into a discussion of U.S. domestic political policy only tangentially related to the war. I avoid political discussion as much as possible online (I think that any discussion that potentially cuts to a person's core identity should be had in person, face to face, in a safe environment for both people) and threads like that feel like getting suckered.

Peoples' definitions of what it means for something to be political are also often different. That's one problem with a blanket ban. Another is that there are political discussions that are very civil, though those are usually very low stakes so people can control themselves. I wouldn't want the brewery to go away entirely, you've all had plenty of cool discussions, like music threads and threads about coffee and stuff. They're harmless escapism threads and they're awesome.

Mind you I mostly find it annoying but I do think that the discussion is actually bad for the forum. There are members who have absolutely left because of discussions in the brewery, and I can't tell you what it adds here to have these sorts of discussions. Seeing the way people talk to each other in the political threads, even when they somehow manage to skirt rule 4 (usually by talking about people in general who just happen to include the member they're arguing with, like lambasting a whole state's/country's worth of fellow humans), makes me less likely to visit, and perhaps more imporantly, less like to post in this place or recommend the forum to other people, though I still read plenty of the threads in microphones and preamps areas and visit the black market weekly (though it's been a long time since I bought anything or posted a new project here).

I also don't personally want something tickling the back of my brain, subconsciously, about someone's electronics advice because I happen to know their politics and disagree with them in an unrelated context. You may think this doesn't happen to you, but you're very likely wrong, because your brain will betray you.
 
We had this discussion before. Just leave it. Nobody is forced to read any of the Brewery threads. And they do not show up in the "Latest Posts" column.
Unfortunately, things, circumstances, views and opinions change so just leave it never really an option - a bit like climate change. The problem for me is there are some interesting technical topics in the brewery so I do want to look through it. But it saddens me so see so much anger and so many personal remarks. It is a sad reflection on what is otherwise a very civilised group. There are plenty of places to discuss politics and so forth. I don't think this should be one of them.

Cheers

Ian
 
I also don't personally want something tickling the back of my brain, subconsciously, about someone's electronics advice because I happen to know their politics and disagree with them in an unrelated context. You may think this doesn't happen to you, but you're very likely wrong, because your brain will betray you.

This has been my experience. Names that used to trigger "This guy knows his stuff" now trigger "ignore" or worse.

I loved the fact that 20 somethings mixed with retired EEs here, from every country and political strata. We came together around our shared passion and curiosity. Distance, rank, age, experience were all secondary. There are Grammy winners here and hobby engineers, tinkerers and people who have designed gear we all know and love, passionate self taught creatives and PhDs.

My information diet is carefully curated these days. I don't Facebook, I mute friends on Instagram who are political, I don't read online news anymore. I follow maybe 100 smart people on Twitter, read some blogs and listen to many hours of podcasts per day (Tyler Cowen, Hidden Forces, Barry Weiss, Sam Harris, Rebel Wisdom, The realignment, Coleman Harris, Lex Fridman etc etc).

All that to say....I'm careful what I put in my ear and eye holes. When I come here it's littered with low quality engagement. I've no doubt that some of us are capable of nuance and the kind of long form conversation that can change minds, I just haven't seen evidence of it here. That low quality and gotcha energy has leaked into the other boards here IMO and was key to losing some of our most valued members.

I rarely post here anymore, and my bench sits unused. I'm just too busy with Mastering, acoustics work and my kids. But I love this place and owe it an awful lot so please forgive my long posts re this topic.
 
I think it is important to learn to navigate through the fact that people can hold very opposing views but still try to come together. Personally, I feel I am no longer young enough to hold the idealistic viewpoint to only engage with people whos views are closely aligned with mine. It's obvious that the discussions here don't change a lot of minds (which makes them not very constructive). But they're still interesting as to understand how different people think.

In real life I walk in many different circles with people from very different backgrounds. But there are viewpoints here of people I hardly ever get to encounter elsewhere for some reason. So I find this very interesting and valueable.
 
One issue with the "just ignore it" advice is that threads can turn political even when they aren't and even against the wishes of the original poster. Pucho posted a thread wishing safety for forum members in Ukraine and it took less than a single page of posts for it to turn into a discussion of U.S. domestic political policy only tangentially related to the war. I avoid political discussion as much as possible online (I think that any discussion that potentially cuts to a person's core identity should be had in person, face to face, in a safe environment for both people) and threads like that feel like getting suckered.
I have even gone as far as starting parallel threads to move the purely political blather into "politics" threads to try to avoid corrupting threads with useful information. Some topics make it hard to avoid politics (like ukraine) but modern politics has corrupted almost every aspect of our lives .

I remain an optimist and think I perceive less politics injected into sports events, but that may be the result of overt politics chasing off viewers, and hurting profits.
Peoples' definitions of what it means for something to be political are also often different. That's one problem with a blanket ban. Another is that there are political discussions that are very civil, though those are usually very low stakes so people can control themselves. I wouldn't want the brewery to go away entirely, you've all had plenty of cool discussions, like music threads and threads about coffee and stuff. They're harmless escapism threads and they're awesome.
Indeed politics has crept into everything. The brewery is not supposed to be serious but some people can't turn down the volume.
Mind you I mostly find it annoying but I do think that the discussion is actually bad for the forum. There are members who have absolutely left because of discussions in the brewery, and I can't tell you what it adds here to have these sorts of discussions.
It certainly doesn't add much of substance. I miss the good old days when I could ignore politics and only voted once every four years if that. Lately politics is front of mind 24x7. I try to watch business news that has progressively evolved into at least 50% political discussion.
Seeing the way people talk to each other in the political threads, even when they somehow manage to skirt rule 4 (usually by talking about people in general who just happen to include the member they're arguing with, like lambasting a whole state's/country's worth of fellow humans), makes me less likely to visit, and perhaps more imporantly, less like to post in this place or recommend the forum to other people, though I still read plenty of the threads in microphones and preamps areas and visit the black market weekly (though it's been a long time since I bought anything or posted a new project here).
agreed 1000%, if I was in charge rule #4 protections would extend to celebrities and even politicians. In my judgement tolerating crude and insulting language toward non-forum members, normalizes this bad behavior toward fellow members. On other forums that are less civil than here, I routinely get insulted aggressively. From my decades working in the musical equipment and sound reinforcement industry I made many friends who are liberal/progressives (pretty common in music biz). Usually it is the friends of my friends (cough) who spew out the most venomous insults. It's easier to insult people you don't know, one factor that drives incivility on the internets.
I also don't personally want something tickling the back of my brain, subconsciously, about someone's electronics advice because I happen to know their politics and disagree with them in an unrelated context. You may think this doesn't happen to you, but you're very likely wrong, because your brain will betray you.
This has always been a risk for talent to reveal too much of their personal thoughts to their customers. I routinely encounter cognitive dissonance when I like a movie character played by an actor who is a flaming _____ in real life. Sometimes the movie is good enough to overcome the negative baggage. Joni Mitchel and what's his name trying to cancel Joe Rogan did not win them any fans, and wasn't successful. Elon Musk buying Twitter is being characterized as a threat to democracy, :rolleyes: ironic that he is a champion for free speech.

Before my knee went arthritic I used to play basketball at a local gym. The young men would routinely dismiss my political opinions, but would hang on my every word about investments/stocks. I saved several people from the housing bubble but even some close friends didn't listen to me and suffered when the music stopped (credit collapse 2007-2008).

The thing I like about electronics is that electrons don't respond to political spin... the laws of physics can't be changed by activist judges.

This thread demonstrates the uniqueness of this forum, while not a simple democracy we try to be responsive to members needs (the number of new members signing up every day suggests we must be doing something right. Just look at all the red new member names on the online list at the bottom of the page.

The skinny rules list make some extra work for the moderators litigating complaints that fall between the cracks. I can't imagine major rules changes but some people obviously do.

JR

[edit- some will view my comments as political, sorry hard to ignore /edit]
 
The way I see it, you can find groups where you can pretend your opionions and small novels on topic x, y or z matters on reddit.

You cant find a single group with a warm, welcoming atmosphere, where knowledge is shared on electronics. I think we can make a decision and effort to make sure the energy here is spent on what we have thats unique and cool, or this group will collapse.

If I dont know someone as a person, on some fundamental level, a disgussion is just trading jabs. I think there has to be trust to achieve integration. When I see people go off the deep end on these political issue, it makes me really uneasy, and I doubt it will accomplish much, aside from digging trenches. Were also starting to attract members who do most of their posting in the Brewery, so its their fundamental activity here.

If I know someone as a person, have a sense of them, and like them, and they have opionions that differ from mine, it can make me stop and think, and I can integrate it into that person, that they are just different from me in that aspect.

When someone who is a stranger on the internet presents opinions that challenge my values, thats 90% of what I know about them, and hence, 90% of who they are to me as a person. (He is Bob the racist!, rather than, he is Bob, he formed opionions about immegration different from mine based on different life experience. I really like him as a person, though, so I am curious about those excperiences).

As it is now, the brewery just gives off a really bad vibe to me, and there is even a moderator with a stake in every fight, which I also think is really off-putting, and sort of greenlights that culture on this forum.

At least have a 10 to 1 posting rule or something (I know thats not realistic, just being tongue in cheek).


Gustav
 
moi?

We kicked around a posting ratio rule but that is too micromanagement. A surprising number of well behaved members don't meet the 10:1 ratio.

I am lucky if I can get the majority of my posts other than in the brewery. I visit the brewery only after the other sub-forums.

A number of my posts are trying to tamp down the anger in some threads, I hope that doesn't count against my ratio. :unsure:

I will sometimes view the list of postings for members I don't know and indeed some members are overly fixated on the partisan scrum. I don't think I've seen any that are 100% brewery posts, but a number come here with other interests and get sucked into the politics.

Maybe we could add a bug on the member avatars indicating which forum they most frequent. This could be a subtle negative feedback against too much brewery. Sadly if I keep responding to this thread is will earn a brewery bug.:rolleyes:

JR
 
moi?

We kicked around a posting ratio rule but that is too micromanagement. A surprising number of well behaved members don't meet the 10:1 ratio.

I am lucky if I can get the majority of my posts other than in the brewery. I visit the brewery only after the other sub-forums.

A number of my posts are trying to tamp down the anger in some threads, I hope that doesn't count against my ratio. :unsure:

I will sometimes view the list of postings for members I don't know and indeed some members are overly fixated on the partisan scrum. I don't think I've seen any that are 100% brewery posts, but a number come here with other interests and get sucked into the politics.

Maybe we could add a bug on the member avatars indicating which forum they most frequent. This could be a subtle negative feedback against too much brewery. Sadly if I keep responding to this thread is will earn a brewery bug.:rolleyes:

JR


1. I am sorry if you felt my post and the content was aimed at you as a person. It was aimed at a culture, and how the moderation role seems to be submerged in it, rather than distanced.

2. I got your direct message, and I dont think it matters if I would hold up to the rule I explicitely posted tongue in cheek.

I dont really see a heavy weight of brewery posts in my posting history, and the ones that are there, are not political (I only scrolled to page 4 of my history). My feeling, that theres a culture where some users are here, mainly to disguss politics in the brewery, remains unchanged. My feeling that it represents a problem for the group as a whole also remains.

I understand that my opionon on the matter is just one voice, and I may be alone with it, but I wanted to share it on this particular topic, because this place matters a great deal to me.

The fact that were even having re-occuring discussions about "what to do", and "we already proposed that solution", with regard to the posting rule, that is a symptom to me.

Ill leave it at that

Gustav
 
So in 24 hours only 24 people have voted? Are that many people ignoring IAN?!? I can't believe it!

I couldn't electronically ignore anyone or any topic here or anywhere else. I think that if I feel the emotional need to "cancel" someone, anywhere, then I have to look at myself FIRST, and ask why I cannot open my eyes, ears, and mind to differing opinion even if I do not agree. Me canceling it only puts my head in the sand. The cancelling going on, especially targeted cancelling, at totalitarian places like goebble, twitler and faschbook is disgraceful.
I voted keep.
Mike
 
So in 24 hours only 24 people have voted? Are that many people ignoring IAN?!? I can't believe it!

I couldn't electronically ignore anyone or any topic here or anywhere else. I think that if I feel the emotional need to "cancel" someone, anywhere, then I have to look at myself FIRST, and ask why I cannot open my eyes, ears, and mind to differing opinion even if I do not agree. Me canceling it only puts my head in the sand.

Agreed.

The cancelling going on, especially targeted cancelling, at totalitarian places like goebble, twitler and faschbook is disgraceful.
I voted keep.
Mike

Well, it depends. John mentioned Elon buying Twitter and free speech. I wouldn't like it if Trump was allowed back on Twitter. I believe Trump to be an enemy of democracy and free speech. The same politicians who say they are championing free speech and proclaim to fight "cancel culture" often are hard at work to deny other people the right to vote in the US. I truly believe that if Trump were to be elected in 2024 there's a great risk that it's the end to democracy and free speech in your country.

I live in a country that descended into facism and genocide not long ago, and after that we instated some rules that limit free speech in certain instances. It's a fine line to walk. If you display a "Z" in public to show support for Putin's war of aggression in Germany, you will be subject to criminal prosecution. Some speech deserves to get cancelled.
 
Last edited:
So in 24 hours only 24 people have voted? Are that many people ignoring IAN?!? I can't believe it!

I couldn't electronically ignore anyone or any topic here or anywhere else. I think that if I feel the emotional need to "cancel" someone, anywhere, then I have to look at myself FIRST, and ask why I cannot open my eyes, ears, and mind to differing opinion even if I do not agree. Me canceling it only puts my head in the sand. The cancelling going on, especially targeted cancelling, at totalitarian places like goebble, twitler and faschbook is disgraceful.
I voted keep.
Mike
You know in retrospect,i think you are right. Free speech should be an inalienable right. As some ancient philosopher once said "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." The people who abuse that right only show exactly what they are. I just don't like that kind of person also being somewhere I frequent. That is what makes me sad, that some people just do not know how to be nice or worse still, choose not to be.

Cheers

ian
 
I am for shut-down, there are too many places in this world where anyone without any responsibility can insult and harm other people. This should not be such a place. Unless we limit ourselves to the discussions here which of the clones will survive the upcoming EMPs, and how to modify them for that ☹️.
 
Shut the Brewery down and the annoying ideological idiots will just meander to other parts of the forum with their frothing ol mouths spewing foolosophy and bile erywhere, lol. Did I just say that!
 
maybe the brewery needs a new name and a new outlook then again the title says it all, can't think of any pub, bar where something doesn't get discussed that goes out of hand once in a while.
 
The Brewery is a great place. Where else would I get to tell you I was fighting an ever increasing pain in my chest, left shoulder, left arm and after the various tests an angiogram uncovered blocked arteries around the heart. During my downtime and the depressing feeling that comes with such a major surgery, I started making stringed instruments. And now stopping is becoming a problem...thus is my addictive personality. The Brewery is powerful tool, but not in the hands of a fool. It rhymed, haha.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top