covid politics

[hodad]

LMFAO.. You've got to be kidding me? I don't remotely care what a single dose of "Pfizer" does for someone who was previously infected. Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? Also, who the hell is bragging about anything?

It appears some of the vax'ed become extremely defensive about their decision.

School me about following the science.

What is your stance exactly? You say it's between you and your doctor--maybe you should ask your doctor about this study that notes the benefits of a Pfizer shot for those who've had Covid? Or is that unacceptable because you can't follow the science when it contradicts other unsupported (and unsupportable) beliefs?

You point to an article (whose findings I assume you accept, since you're citing it to counter me), and yet you're seemingly unwilling to follow the science of the article where it leads you.

That is not a problem with my thinking. That is not defensiveness. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say it's you using an article to score points in an argument without being willing to accept what it actually says. Not very consistent of you--except, judging by your responses in this thread, it is very consistent of you.

 

[fallout]

What is your stance exactly? You say it's between you and your doctor--maybe you should ask your doctor about this study that notes the benefits of a Pfizer shot for those who've had Covid? Or is that unacceptable because you can't follow the science when it contradicts other unsupported (and unsupportable) beliefs?

You point to an article (whose findings I assume you accept, since you're citing it to counter me), and yet you're seemingly unwilling to follow the science of the article where it leads you.

That is not a problem with my thinking. That is not defensiveness. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say it's you using an article to score points in an argument without being willing to accept what it actually says. Not very consistent of you--except, judging by your responses in this thread, it is very consistent of you.

"People who recovered from a bout of COVID-19 during one of the earlier waves of the pandemic appear to have a lower risk of contracting the delta variant than those who got two doses of the vaccine from Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE."

"The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than never-infected, vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19."

These are the opening paragraphs to the articles, there's nothing difficult to digest. I'm perfectly fine with my current LOW risk level (as is my doctor) and don't care or feel any urgent need to 'boost' my immunity against Covid at this point. Not surprisingly, you're making this out to be more than it is. I am not bragging, it simply is what it is. Perhaps something better is on the horizon? I'll wait it out, thanks. Science should improve, no? Or do we stop here?

I also linked a study that support this. To be quite honest, the study itself is a bit over my head and I assume that it is no different for you. The one thing that's clear in the study, is that natural immunity sticks around for quite a while.

My stance is and has been since I first posted on this thread is that.. I don't care about anyone's vaccination status but think mandates/vaccine passports are ridiculous. The sidebar arguments didn't change my stance one bit.

Funny, the only post that actually resonated with me was the Voltaire quote. It actually made me look inward a little bit.

Anyway.. I think this has run it's course. Be well and lighten the f__k up!

 

[john12ax7]

Here is a link to the actual study pdf
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf
I don't feel like checking all the math, at first glance some of the computations seem a little off, but the general conclusions would be roughly the same.

Their findings:

1) When comparing natural immunity vs 2 dose vaccination, natural immunity gave about 13x better protection against delta when the original case was early 2021.

2) When comparing natural immunity vs 2 dose vaccination, natural immunity gave about 6x better protection against delta when the original case was older from 2020.

3) A single vaccine dose on top of natural immunity gave about a 1.5 - 2x improvement against delta, the statistical significance here is a bit of a grey area though.

I'm sure both political sides will twist this into whatever their stance is.

My personal take, mandating recovered individuals to get a vaccine is kind of ridiculous. Some European countries are implementing vaccine passports that allow 3 options a) proof of vaccination, b) proof of negative covid test, or c) proof of covid recovery. That seems a more reasonable approach.

 

[Script]

but think mandates/vaccine passports are ridiculous.

I am not a huge fan of mandates either. Could do a nationwide referendum on it -- just joking

Well, I do understand that big private companies can and some actually do ask their employees to be fully vaccinated -- and they apparently are alegally allowed to do so as long as they do not discriminate one group of employees over another. Do I like this ? No much. But I do understand, for now.

Even more ,I understand should a restaurant or bar owner, for instance, not want unvaccinated people on their premises. Being the owner of a place linked to a huge infection cluster is bad for the image, I get that. Whether allowing in only vaccinated and recovered people -- and shutting out unvaccinated people -- is helpful in the bigger picture or not I don't know.. But it's about their business and their business income after all. As owners they are entitled to decide whatever they want, whether e like it or not.

Anyway, I am optimistic that this too will pass, once we have enter an endemic stage.

---
P.S.: Some European countries are dropping the "b) proof of negative covid test" again, cos those tests can produce false results meaning the proof can be tempered with -- repeat test until it yields the desired result.

 

[john12ax7]

I'm not familiar with how the testing works. If you take the same test multiple times in one day, what is the distribution of results?

 

[Script]

I read something like 1 false in 7. But forgot which specific test they were talking about. However, false results have also been talked about somewhere above in this thread.

[anecdotal]
Have a friend in Europe who got a false positive once, causing a lot of distress for him and a lot of other people involved. Follow-up PCR showed negative.
[/anecdotal]

Anyway, so far, such testing was of little interest over here , cos in Japan, AFAIK, we don't really have them widely available for the public. Maybe we do, but I never checked. I guess Japan always considered them to be a waste of resource and time , with somewhat dubious results ( some false indications unavoidable and anyway result is valid for how long ? ), and at worst, such tests can contribute to a false sense of security among the populace.

However, Japan now has changed their minds and distributed large amounts of test kits to schools -- but only for use by staff, for now. They want to see how reopening of schools after prolonged summer holidays works out. Right now, it's teleschooling for the first two weeks of school -- teleschooling in primary school for the very first time ever in our area,

 

[boji]

 

[fallout]

My personal take, mandating recovered individuals to get a vaccine is kind of ridiculous. Some European countries are implementing vaccine passports that allow 3 options a) proof of vaccination, b) proof of negative covid test, or c) proof of covid recovery. That seems a more reasonable approach.

Seems like a pretty reasonable take.

But it's about their business and their business income after all. As owners they are entitled to decide whatever they want, whether e like it or not.

That's pretty much the long and short of it but I really don't see the point. I guess that's where my frustration is. Vaccines don't stop the spread. In my opinion, that would be the only argument for strict mandates/vaccine passports.

Anyway, I am optimistic that this too will pass, once we have enter an endemic stage.

I'm optimistic as well. Hopefully 'covid politics' and the insanity that comes with it passes. Unfortunately, I think Covid is here to stay.

 

[john12ax7]

Vaccines don't stop the spread.

Not sure what you mean here. Nothing is 100% effective. But the way you eradicate a virus is to reduce the transmissibilty below a critical threshold. A vaccine with the right % effectiveness administered to the right % of people will "stop" the spread. Think we should all be able to agree on this.

That doesn't mean vaccine public policy is a settled matter. There is still room for debate there.

 

[Matador]

Not sure what you mean here

I took it to mean he was arguing 'reductio ad absurdum'. In other words, it means 'vaccines don't stop the spread' in the exact same way as 'seatbelts don't stop vehicle deaths', 'diets don't stop obesity', and 'stopping smoking doesn't cure lung cancer'.

It would seem to many that the calculus of pandemic risk doesn't extend beyond whatever personally impacts them.

 

[fallout]

Not sure what you mean here. Nothing is 100% effective.

Agreed

But the way you eradicate a virus is to reduce the transmissibilty below a critical threshold. A vaccine with the right % effectiveness administered to the right % of people will "stop" the spread. Think we should all be able to agree on this.

Have we ever eradicated a virus beside smallpox?

I do get what you're saying though.. What I understand about Covid and the vaccines is that a coronavirus will create variants faster than vaccines can keep up, similar to influenza. This already seems to be apparent with the delta variant. If you're not preventing transmission as you mentioned, how are you stopping the spread? Is the CDC lying?

"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well," Walensky told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "They continue to work well for Delta, with regard to severe illness and death -- they prevent it. But what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission." -CDC

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v..._longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html
Not exactly MY idea of "stopping the spread" but others might feel differently. If you said the Covid vaccines are effective at lessening symptoms at this stage of the pandemic, I'd agree. If it keeps a majority of those at risk out of the hospital, that's a good thing. I'd never argue against someone wanting to get vaccinated, especially those at high risk for severe symptoms.

I took it to mean he was arguing 'reductio ad absurdum'. In other words, it means 'vaccines don't stop the spread' in the exact same way as 'seatbelts don't stop vehicle deaths', 'diets don't stop obesity', and 'stopping smoking doesn't cure lung cancer'.

It would seem to many that the calculus of pandemic risk doesn't extend beyond whatever personally impacts them.

You would be correct except there's absolutely nothing absurd about my statement and I'm not trying to argue. I don't believe the vaccines are stopping the spread of Covid. 'reductio ad absurdum'? Fancy..

Covid and it's mutations are here to stay, let's hope that the world gets it under control. Yearly, voluntary Covid/Influenza shots for those at risk? Who knows.

 

[crazydoc]

It's gotten pretty pointless to discuss this - I guess we all will just think and do whatever we want to. To me it's clear that since there are many many more unvaccinated people than vaccinated that have the disease and are contagious (even though those with breakthrough infections can spread it), it is the unvaccinated that are causing the surge. As the proportion people with immunity (both vaccinated and natural) increases, at some point the infection rate will decrease to a manageable level. Meanwhile, lots of folks will get sick, some will die (including children), the economy will suffer, and the health system will be overwhelmed, both treating covid and all the other conditions that need medical intervention.

I will just wear my masks, stay away from people as much as possible and hope for the best until the pendulum swings the other way.

 

[Matador]

I have grown so tired of this "it's between me and my doctor" argument: once again, for the cheap seats: A GLOBAL PANDEMIC ISN'T ABOUT YOU. Whether or not you feel you are low risk is irrelevant. Whether or not you think you are careful is irrelevant. Whether or not the vaccine is 100% effective is irrelevant. For Christ sake: unless you have some unique medical condition that says otherwise, just TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM, so we can move past this. Having everyone vaccinated minimizes the chances of spread and new variants. THIS ISN'T ABOUT ONLY YOU.

Every one of us that live in a community are the sum of all the people we could possibly impact. Even if you are in a low risk camp, NOT EVERYONE YOU COME IN CONTACT WITH IS. Unless you can bugger off to a cabin in the woods (and those woods aren't on fire), never speak to, go near, or influence in any way, any other person, then you should be vaccinated. THIS ISN'T ABOUT ONLY YOU.

Children ARE in the lowest risk pool: but those children aren't locked away in bubbles. Their teachers, the school staff, the people who deliver supplies to the school, all of the families of all of those people, all of the close relatives of those children...any of them could VERY WELL be in high risk categories. Every person is the sum of every potential person we could otherwise impact. THIS ISN'T ABOUT ONLY YOU.

And even if you disagree with all of that...WE ALREADY LIVE IN A WORLD WITH VACCINE MANDATES: children (like in EVERY STATE, maybe with the exception of Iowa) have been required to be MMR vaccinated upon entering middle school. In many states the same requirement exists for any childcare situation involving more than 5 kids. The world didn't come to an end, and THIS ISN'T ABOUT ONLY YOU.

Amd we MANDATE all kinds of other crap too: in most places you can't smoke in bars or public places. You must buy insurance before you can operate a car. You have to pay taxes. What do all of these things have in common? They are all situations where your personal decisions/actions can impact someone else. In other words:

THIS ISN'T ABOUT ONLY YOU.

(and I am saying this as a collective 'YOU', and am not pointing fingers at anyone specifically, in case it isn't obvious).

 

[fallout]

Having everyone vaccinated minimizes the chances of spread and new variants.

Since you're yelling.. I have to say flat out, that statement is a CROCK OF SHIT!

reductio ad absurdum

.any of them could VERY WELL be in high risk categories.

and should be vaccinated. no?

 

[grid_stopper]

It's gotten pretty pointless to discuss this - I guess we all will just think and do whatever we want to. To me it's clear that since there are many many more unvaccinated people than vaccinated that have the disease and are contagious (even though those with breakthrough infections can spread it), it is the unvaccinated that are causing the surge. As the proportion people with immunity (both vaccinated and natural) increases, at some point the infection rate will decrease to a manageable level. Meanwhile, lots of folks will get sick, some will die (including children), the economy will suffer, and the health system will be overwhelmed, both treating covid and all the other conditions that need medical intervention.

I will just wear my masks, stay away from people as much as possible and hope for the best until the pendulum swings the other way.

All well and good on paper, but this ignores the reality of the situation. Take for example my own personal situation. I cannot be vaccinated, it will kill me(underlying health condition) and my doctor has told me to not get it. Not ideal, but it is what it is. I am young, otherwise healthy and have to be tested regularly+ have to wear a mask for work anyways so no problem. Heres the catch though, my local government has just put a mandate in place that prevents me from going basically anywhere that isnt work, home or the grocery store. I can not go see my wife who lives on the other side of the border, I cannot visit family who live the next province over, I cannot go out with friends for dinner or anywhere else indoors. There is no medical exemption. I understand that many aspects of day to day life is already mandated, usually to the benefit of society-but who exactly is this mandate benefiting? it certainly isnt me, and based on the statistics im seeing, it looks like at least 10% of the population isnt eligible to be vaccinated, so I would hazard a guess and say that its probably not benefitting them either. This of course says nothing of the fact the government has proven on numerous occasions that they can not be trusted to use this kind of info responsibly.

tl;dr- life is rarely as black and white as it appears on the surface and approaching it it as such in such a hysterical tone does nothing useful for anyone.

 

[Matador]

Since you're yelling.. I have to say flat out, that statement is a CROCK OF SHIT!

No you!

and should be vaccinated. no?

Yes. When I say all should be vaccinated who can be, it by definition includes those who are high risk.

 

[fallout]

No you!

NO YOU!!

You made the statement.. Please enlighten me how vaccinations can stop Covid from mutating and creating new variants (hint: they can't)

Yes. When I say all should be vaccinated who can be, it by definition includes those who are high risk.

Yes, those at high risk should be vaccinated and I 100% agree, no argument here.

fallout's magic 8-ball: Covid shots at yet TBD intervals. Covid is here to stay. Protect those at risk. The virus will weaken. The fear won't stop until society had enough.

"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." -Voltaire

 

[Matador]

You made the statement.. Please enlighten me how vaccinations can stop Covid from mutating and creating new variants (hint: it can't)

Having everyone vaccinated ****minimizes**** the chances of spread and new variants.

 

[fallout]

Having everyone vaccinated ****minimizes**** the chances of spread and new variants.

Covid vaccines do nothing of the sort. The vaccines won't stop the spread or transmission (especially delta), they'll lessen the symptoms. They do not provide sterilizing immunity. Dig around the CDC website, the info is there but you have to dig around to find all the current info. Lot's of conflicting info but it's all there. By the time everyone is vaccinated for the "Delta", the next more contagious and WEAKER variant will emerge and the next booster will be available.

Pay attention. Not everything anecdotal is bullshit.

"Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

 

[crazydoc]

All well and good on paper, but this ignores the reality of the situation.

approaching it it as such in such a hysterical tone does nothing useful for anyone.

I don't see how you consider my post hysterical - it is the reality of the situation. Sorry you are in an unfortunate position, but it is the reality of the situation. Nobody is going to make it any better, and it will just run its course, whatever that will be.
There is a world full of people who think they know everything, but in reality know nothing. It is good that many of them will acquire natural immunity and improve the situation.