Livingroom
Member
Regarding my last post, I just found a short on my 340's. Fixed it and now things seem a lot better :grin:
Official 33609 builder's tread. See 1st page for updates.
- Thread starter Igor
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
tommypiper
Well-known member
[quote author="loopermc5"]Tommypiper
I talk to David at cinemag and I went with his suggestion of cmmi-2c for input cmoq-2l for interstage and cmob-2l for output this thing ways a ton and I love it[/quote]
Thanks. Can you tell us how they were wired, please?
It seems to me there is a problem here. The CMOB-2 will only work 1:1, so I don't see how it can work in the circuit, because neither the interstage nor the outputs are 1:1. Can you check on that, please?
I talk to David at cinemag and I went with his suggestion of cmmi-2c for input cmoq-2l for interstage and cmob-2l for output this thing ways a ton and I love it[/quote]
Thanks. Can you tell us how they were wired, please?
It seems to me there is a problem here. The CMOB-2 will only work 1:1, so I don't see how it can work in the circuit, because neither the interstage nor the outputs are 1:1. Can you check on that, please?
Hi, got back from vacations, will have some time to help on this week....
questions???...is there people who allready have working 33609's?
@Livingroom:
so, your 33609 working?
r44 0.25W is OK.
@inputoutput:
did you fixed bc184's issue?
questions???...is there people who allready have working 33609's?
@Livingroom:
so, your 33609 working?
r44 0.25W is OK.
@inputoutput:
did you fixed bc184's issue?
tommypiper
Well-known member
[quote author="Igor"]Regarding trunny's, psb fits TF10016, 31267, OEP A262A2E, LL1540, LL1532 as input, TF10015, 10468, LL1528, OEP A262A2E as interstage. [/quote]
I'm confused. Can we clear this up?
Is T1 Input? Isn't it normally 10468 1:2? (It says interstage above)
Is T2 Interstage? Isn't it normally 31267 2:1? (It says input above)
:?
I'm confused. Can we clear this up?
Is T1 Input? Isn't it normally 10468 1:2? (It says interstage above)
Is T2 Interstage? Isn't it normally 31267 2:1? (It says input above)
:?
tommypiper
Well-known member
And on to T3...
:grin:
What are you guys using?
Anyone using Cinemags? (The CMOB-2 mentioned may not work according to drawings what I've seen... The CMOQ-2 should work. Anyone using any Cinemags?)
Anyone using Sowters?
Others?
Carnhills are expensive from this side of the pond at the moment...
Which ones?
What's the happening, guys?
:guinness:
:grin:
What are you guys using?
Anyone using Cinemags? (The CMOB-2 mentioned may not work according to drawings what I've seen... The CMOQ-2 should work. Anyone using any Cinemags?)
Anyone using Sowters?
Others?
Carnhills are expensive from this side of the pond at the moment...
Which ones?
What's the happening, guys?
:guinness:
SWNYC
Member
Hi Tommypiper,
I've yet to start the build due to not yet receiving the pcb's. I just got the case and Purusha did an outstanding job. Can't wait to get started. Here's what I can gather: T2 is Input. (~2:1 10k:2k4 -6dB) Origanally a Neve L31267 / Belclere TF10016 or Marinair or St. Ives equivelant. T1 is Interstage. (1:2 1k2:4k8 +6dB) Neve 10468 / Belclere TF10015. Take a look at Tekay’s Transformer Cross Table. T3, output (70:600 ~1:2.5 +8dB) a LO1173. I am leaning towards using Cinemag as an output but will wait to get the boards. Hopefully this isn’t redundant and helps out a little. Looking forward to hear what others are using as well.
I've yet to start the build due to not yet receiving the pcb's. I just got the case and Purusha did an outstanding job. Can't wait to get started. Here's what I can gather: T2 is Input. (~2:1 10k:2k4 -6dB) Origanally a Neve L31267 / Belclere TF10016 or Marinair or St. Ives equivelant. T1 is Interstage. (1:2 1k2:4k8 +6dB) Neve 10468 / Belclere TF10015. Take a look at Tekay’s Transformer Cross Table. T3, output (70:600 ~1:2.5 +8dB) a LO1173. I am leaning towards using Cinemag as an output but will wait to get the boards. Hopefully this isn’t redundant and helps out a little. Looking forward to hear what others are using as well.
tommypiper
Well-known member
[quote author="SWNYC"]
T2 is Input. (~2:1 10k:2k4 -6dB) Origanally a Neve L31267
T1 is Interstage. (1:2 1k2:4k8 +6dB) Neve 10468 [/quote]
OK...
I thought I'd seen it otherwise and different and all mixed up...
odd that they number T2 as the input... but I see that much...
I've seen the schematic, but it doesn't identify the transformer model (i.e. 10468 or 31267).
What Cinemag are you considering for output? Because I don't think the CMOB-2 will work.
T2 is Input. (~2:1 10k:2k4 -6dB) Origanally a Neve L31267
T1 is Interstage. (1:2 1k2:4k8 +6dB) Neve 10468 [/quote]
OK...
I thought I'd seen it otherwise and different and all mixed up...
odd that they number T2 as the input... but I see that much...
I've seen the schematic, but it doesn't identify the transformer model (i.e. 10468 or 31267).
What Cinemag are you considering for output? Because I don't think the CMOB-2 will work.
inputoutput
Well-known member
[quote author="Igor"]
inputoutput:
did you fixed bc184's issue?[/quote]
Thanks for asking Igor, yes I changed them, but I’m sorry to say that there’s still no audio going through my PCBs. same on both pcbs. I have a feeling that the error is on the 340 boards, but I haven’t been able to spot it yet. All the Voltages on mainPCB, from your voltages-schems are spot on correct. And I have been changing most of the transistors, just to be sure.I've also randomly checked most of the resistors. so voltage-vise, things seems quite ok.
When I turn it on, the meters go to the top, and then after a minute it turns to zero. So there’s definitively a strong power-signal going to the meters in the beginning there.
Does anybody have a suggestion for me to try next? Should I try an alternative to the 340’ties?
Igor, I noticed that resistors R6 and R60 differs from the original neve schem. (R6=24K and R60=62K). But I guess you have a reason for this?
BTW: I am surprised that a popular DIY project like this has virtually no technical or troubleshooting discussions going. Where is everybody?
inputoutput:
did you fixed bc184's issue?[/quote]
Thanks for asking Igor, yes I changed them, but I’m sorry to say that there’s still no audio going through my PCBs. same on both pcbs. I have a feeling that the error is on the 340 boards, but I haven’t been able to spot it yet. All the Voltages on mainPCB, from your voltages-schems are spot on correct. And I have been changing most of the transistors, just to be sure.I've also randomly checked most of the resistors. so voltage-vise, things seems quite ok.
When I turn it on, the meters go to the top, and then after a minute it turns to zero. So there’s definitively a strong power-signal going to the meters in the beginning there.
Does anybody have a suggestion for me to try next? Should I try an alternative to the 340’ties?
Igor, I noticed that resistors R6 and R60 differs from the original neve schem. (R6=24K and R60=62K). But I guess you have a reason for this?
BTW: I am surprised that a popular DIY project like this has virtually no technical or troubleshooting discussions going. Where is everybody?
Hi!
>>>>
Thanks for asking Igor, yes I changed them, but I’m sorry to say that there’s still no audio going through my PCBs. same on both pcbs. I have a feeling that the error is on the 340 boards, but I haven’t been able to spot it yet.
>>>>
Just check out what happens on secondary of input trafo, then on
tp_a, tp_b, tp_c.
If on tp_c you get approx. 25 db lower sin wave than on input,
then check twice ba340.
>>>>
All the Voltages on mainPCB, from your voltages-schems are spot on correct. And I have been changing most of the transistors, just to be sure.I've also randomly checked most of the resistors. so voltage-vise, things seems quite ok.
>>>>
Feels better
>>>>
When I turn it on, the meters go to the top, and then after a minute it turns to zero. So there’s definitively a strong power-signal going to the meters in the beginning there.
>>>>
This is OK, let the unit 10-15 sec to stabilize after power-on.
>>>>
Does anybody have a suggestion for me to try next? Should I try an alternative to the 340’ties?
>>>>
Just see what happens before ba340 on tp_c
>>>>
Igor, I noticed that resistors R6 and R60 differs from the original neve schem. (R6=24K and R60=62K). But I guess you have a reason for this?
>>>>
r6 is actually jumper... r6. same 24k as in orig. schemo; same with r60.
Values printed on pcb are all right.
Except:
There's one resistor on each front pcb (on comp. recovery switch)
which is 24k in one variant of orig. Neve schem and 6k8 in other...
I used older version, then...
it marked r10', located near com. recovery switch and should be 24k.
6k8 will work but recovery will be very fast on 100ms setting.
>>>>
BTW: I am surprised that a popular DIY project like this has virtually no technical or troubleshooting discussions going. Where is everybody?
>>>>
I trying to help as possible...see 2254/33609 tread as well.
You can pm me and I'll try to help you using Skype in my free minute.
>>>>
Thanks for asking Igor, yes I changed them, but I’m sorry to say that there’s still no audio going through my PCBs. same on both pcbs. I have a feeling that the error is on the 340 boards, but I haven’t been able to spot it yet.
>>>>
Just check out what happens on secondary of input trafo, then on
tp_a, tp_b, tp_c.
If on tp_c you get approx. 25 db lower sin wave than on input,
then check twice ba340.
>>>>
All the Voltages on mainPCB, from your voltages-schems are spot on correct. And I have been changing most of the transistors, just to be sure.I've also randomly checked most of the resistors. so voltage-vise, things seems quite ok.
>>>>
Feels better
>>>>
When I turn it on, the meters go to the top, and then after a minute it turns to zero. So there’s definitively a strong power-signal going to the meters in the beginning there.
>>>>
This is OK, let the unit 10-15 sec to stabilize after power-on.
>>>>
Does anybody have a suggestion for me to try next? Should I try an alternative to the 340’ties?
>>>>
Just see what happens before ba340 on tp_c
>>>>
Igor, I noticed that resistors R6 and R60 differs from the original neve schem. (R6=24K and R60=62K). But I guess you have a reason for this?
>>>>
r6 is actually jumper... r6. same 24k as in orig. schemo; same with r60.
Values printed on pcb are all right.
Except:
There's one resistor on each front pcb (on comp. recovery switch)
which is 24k in one variant of orig. Neve schem and 6k8 in other...
I used older version, then...
it marked r10', located near com. recovery switch and should be 24k.
6k8 will work but recovery will be very fast on 100ms setting.
>>>>
BTW: I am surprised that a popular DIY project like this has virtually no technical or troubleshooting discussions going. Where is everybody?
>>>>
I trying to help as possible...see 2254/33609 tread as well.
You can pm me and I'll try to help you using Skype in my free minute.
tommypiper
Well-known member
[quote author="Igor"]
BTW: I am surprised that a popular DIY project like this has virtually no technical or troubleshooting discussions going. Where is everybody?
[/quote]
Many of us are still trying to get transformers in the US.
Igor, I have a question. Cinemag recommended the CMOQ-2L to loopermc5 for the line in, T2. http://cinemag.biz/output/CMOQ-2.pdf That transformer is an output transformer. It can be wired 2:1. What do you think to use a big core output transformer for the input?
And for T1, is a humbucking design important to have? Cinemag recommended the CMMI-2C. http://cinemag.biz/mic_input/CMMI-2C.pdf
BTW: I am surprised that a popular DIY project like this has virtually no technical or troubleshooting discussions going. Where is everybody?
[/quote]
Many of us are still trying to get transformers in the US.
Igor, I have a question. Cinemag recommended the CMOQ-2L to loopermc5 for the line in, T2. http://cinemag.biz/output/CMOQ-2.pdf That transformer is an output transformer. It can be wired 2:1. What do you think to use a big core output transformer for the input?
And for T1, is a humbucking design important to have? Cinemag recommended the CMMI-2C. http://cinemag.biz/mic_input/CMMI-2C.pdf
loopermc5
Well-known member
I would just like to send out a thanks to Tommypiper for correcting my trans former issues with the 33609 I put in the cinemag cmob-2 and it's wrong rookie mistake
tommypiper
Well-known member
Thanks, Loopermc5, no problem. Wasn't really your mistake, but Cinemag's for giving you the wrong outputs. Yours should sound even better with the right outputs and wiring. Just shows, it's a pretty robust circuit -- works no matter what! :grin:
OK, I've asked around and it seems that the CMOQ-2 should work as a line input, wired 2:1 (T2). It's a bit unorthadox to use an output transformer as an input, but not unheard of...
I would also use a CMOQ-2 as the output (T3), wired 1:2. The "S" version (steel core) probably sounds the closest to Neve originals and should be good.
For T1, the Cinemage CMMI-2C is shielded, it should be OK. (It's working in Loopermc5's...) The 10468 equivalent from Carnhill probably has more Neve tone and also has the humbucking. A Lundahl would work very well there too. (LL1538 and probably others.)
Time to order iron!
:guinness:
OK, I've asked around and it seems that the CMOQ-2 should work as a line input, wired 2:1 (T2). It's a bit unorthadox to use an output transformer as an input, but not unheard of...
I would also use a CMOQ-2 as the output (T3), wired 1:2. The "S" version (steel core) probably sounds the closest to Neve originals and should be good.
For T1, the Cinemage CMMI-2C is shielded, it should be OK. (It's working in Loopermc5's...) The 10468 equivalent from Carnhill probably has more Neve tone and also has the humbucking. A Lundahl would work very well there too. (LL1538 and probably others.)
Time to order iron!
:guinness:
maxwall
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2004
- Messages
- 1,134
Here is a simpler conversion to Cinemag part numbers
33609 Neve to Cinemag conversion ( not exact but close enough if carnhills are too expensive )
Original Tx _______________________Order Cinemag part #
T1 10486 ( mic or interstage tx)................. CMMI-2C
T2 31267 ( Line input tx)............................ CMOQ-2(L-nickel?,S- Steel?) wired 2:1
T3 LO1173 ( Ouptut tx )..............................CMOQ-2S wired 1:2
L-nickel , brighter sound
S-steel , colored sound
question : has anyone else tried the above Cinemag compliment with good success , or is this just speculative results ?
Looking at the dc resistance between the CMMI-2C and 10468(1k2:4k8) , as well as the CMOQ-2S and the LO1173(70:600), they seem quite dissimilar. Especially when using half of the Cinemag quadfilar winding to get a 1:2 ratio and so on.
What compensation method is used to match the dc resistance , if any ?
[quote author="Tekay"]T2 is a step-down transformer 10k:2k4 / ~2:1, TF10016, L31267 or similar
T1 is a step-up transformer 1k2:4k8 / 1:2, TF10015 or L10468 or similar
T3 is step-up transformer 70:600 / ~1:2.5 (+8dB) TF12009, L1173 or similar.
If you use an outputtransformer with an other ratio your limiterthreshold will not track as the limiter section is made to be feeded from a low impedance sorce 8dB below the outputlevel.[/quote]
33609 Neve to Cinemag conversion ( not exact but close enough if carnhills are too expensive )
Original Tx _______________________Order Cinemag part #
T1 10486 ( mic or interstage tx)................. CMMI-2C
T2 31267 ( Line input tx)............................ CMOQ-2(L-nickel?,S- Steel?) wired 2:1
T3 LO1173 ( Ouptut tx )..............................CMOQ-2S wired 1:2
L-nickel , brighter sound
S-steel , colored sound
question : has anyone else tried the above Cinemag compliment with good success , or is this just speculative results ?
Looking at the dc resistance between the CMMI-2C and 10468(1k2:4k8) , as well as the CMOQ-2S and the LO1173(70:600), they seem quite dissimilar. Especially when using half of the Cinemag quadfilar winding to get a 1:2 ratio and so on.
What compensation method is used to match the dc resistance , if any ?
[quote author="Tekay"]T2 is a step-down transformer 10k:2k4 / ~2:1, TF10016, L31267 or similar
T1 is a step-up transformer 1k2:4k8 / 1:2, TF10015 or L10468 or similar
T3 is step-up transformer 70:600 / ~1:2.5 (+8dB) TF12009, L1173 or similar.
If you use an outputtransformer with an other ratio your limiterthreshold will not track as the limiter section is made to be feeded from a low impedance sorce 8dB below the outputlevel.[/quote]
Livingroom
Member
Just finished the box and compared to my original(new reissue) 33609 JD it sounds absolutely great. Used Lundahls in/interstage and Marinair for the output. Lots of nice bass, even a little fuller than the belclere gives you in the original.
Thanks so much Igor for a great project, now I'll just have to build another one :grin:
Thanks so much Igor for a great project, now I'll just have to build another one :grin:
tommypiper
Well-known member
Great. Which Lundahls did you use? Which Marinairs for the output?
maxheadroom
Well-known member
i have a small question about the PSU: what does TrimPot R3 exactly do?
[quote author="maxheadroom"]i have a small question about the PSU: what does TrimPot R3 exactly do?[/quote]
You can use either R3 trimmer or R5 fixed (3k57). Igor said earlier that the 3k57 should give you exactly 24v. I used the trimmer just in case I needed to tweak the output DC.
-J
You can use either R3 trimmer or R5 fixed (3k57). Igor said earlier that the 3k57 should give you exactly 24v. I used the trimmer just in case I needed to tweak the output DC.
-J
Livingroom
Member
The trafos I used are Lundahl LL1540 input, LL 1528 inter and Carnhill VTB9056 output.
I said Marinair earlier but I must have had my mind somewhere else sorry :grin:
I said Marinair earlier but I must have had my mind somewhere else sorry :grin:
Tungstengruvsten
Well-known member
did the lundahls drop right on the board? or mounted off board like the 31267/10468's would be....i've got those trannies but I kinda want to save them for a preamp project since I couldn't afford to buy them again! And the thought of the board mount transformers is appealing, and I have the 9056 output here already...
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