The Middle East Friendship Chart

[Banzai]

You make subjective claims about intent that are not in the objective historical record.

Like what?

Saddam invading Kuwait because he was broke?
US supporting the Taliban to kill Soviets and overthrow communists?
Israel helping Hamas take over the Gaza strip to weaken Arafat?

All well documented.

Picking sides in international relations is often about choosing lesser evils, and changing alliances.

Poor excuse for being an unreliable ally.

I don't recall much about the elder Assad but the younger was reportedly accused of supporting the Hezbollah truck bomb assassination of the popular leader in Lebanon (Hariri) who was unifying that country, and who argued to get Syrian troops out of his country.

Tribunal failed to find any evidence of direct Hezbollah, Iranian, or Syrian involvement in the bombing. Whoever ordered it is unknown – those with the most to gain from the bombing were Israel and Saudi Arabia.

His son is one of the most corrupt Lebanese leaders in the country's history, and a Saudi pawn. MBS forcing him to resign on Saudi TV (half drugged) cleared up any remaining doubts.

Iran was also supporting Hezbollah. Of course Lebanon rose to my awareness after the marine barracks truck bombing there, I questioned ex-President Reagan's withdrawal. Time has not clarified that decision for me.

Reagan directly caused that attack by taking the side of the Phalangists in a civil war (US ships bombed Shia positions whilst claiming to be there on a 'peacekeeping' mission).

More recently Assad was dealing with his own civil war in Syria trying to remove him from power. Syria was sanctioned internationally for gassing their own people. IIRC ex-President Obama famously drew a red line, warning Assad not to do that again. Ex-President Trump enforced the red line by punishing Assad with surgical missile strikes.

Yes. Assad would always end up conveniently gassing someone everytime he won a battle. Just like that, he would always do the one thing that would cause the Americans to bomb him, exactly when he needed to do it the least.

Call me a cynic.

You will likely have a different recollection of this, Russian and Iranian sources who support Assad spin it differently. it appears some of these old conflicts and tension are still playing out.

Which old conflicts and tension?

Speaking of support... US-Israel-UK-France-Turkey-Qatar-UAE-Saudi Arabia directly supported Al-Qaeda/Al-Nusra in Syria. US spent billions training lunatics in Jordan as "moderate rebels", only for them to roll into Syria and hand over weapons and allegiance to either Al-Nusra or ISIS. "We didn't know that would happen" is bullshit. No-one's that stupid.

US allies Israel, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey directly armed and funded Al-Qaeda and ISIS. Turkey enabled ISIS financially through trade (bought their oil etc), and provided land access for foreign fighters to join the war. Turkey is a NATO country = NATO directly supported both ISIS and Al-Qaeda.

I'm still amazed how the west got away with this. No-one's holding them accountable for mounting a failed Islamist insurgency against a secular government, and destroying a country already housing millions of refugees from another failed western war in Iraq.

Try to avoid simple answers for complex questions in the region.

Maybe you want this to be more complicated than it is. US is leaving the middle-east because it no longer needs the oil and American voters no longer have the stomach for more decade long nation building wars. Fastest way to achieving this is peace with Iran and the Taliban, putting a plug on Israeli expansionism, and cutting Saudi Arabia down to size.

Russia is using the Syrian port of Tartus to house 11 war ships there ( a pretty simple answer). Russia militarily punches above it's weight in the international 3 way scrum between US, Russia, and China. Being able to express military power in the ME region supports Russian goals.

This will be difficult to relate to, but the Russians don't sell out their allies. Neither does Iran or China (Syria was on Iran's side during the Iran-Iraq war). The biggest political coup for Russia was standing by their man and winning.

Russia and China also border this region. US can come and go as it pleases, they can't.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Like what?

Saddam invading Kuwait because he was broke?

Saddam was a bad guy and despite his large palaces was not rolling in cash because sanctions prohibited him from freely selling his oil. He gamed the UN program that allowed him to sell oil for food/medicine, getting kickbacks from corrupt businessmen and bankers.

US supporting the Taliban to kill Soviets and overthrow communists?

As I already shared... the US supported Afghan mujahideen (including OBL) to embarrass and weaken Soviets. Just like they did to us at every opportunity.

Israel helping Hamas take over the Gaza strip to weaken Arafat?

Arafat despite winning the Nobel peace prize was not a good guy. Since he has openly vowed to destroy Israel it should be no surprise that they didn't support him.

All well documented.

not the mind reading "intent", but facts are facts

Poor excuse for being an unreliable ally.

Allies are pretty much transactional, I predict that immediately after WWII Germany and Japan were not our greatest allies, now decades later we have developed strong relationships. Our relationship with Germany a long time Nato ally has been strained by president Biden's recent behavior in Afghanistan.

The Afghan military was a strong ally who died for a better future and we not only stopped supporting them, President Biden effectively accused them of being cowards. In that one move he pissed away whatever moral authority we had (or thought we had).

Tribunal failed to find any evidence of direct Hezbollah, Iranian, or Syrian involvement in the bombing. Whoever ordered it is unknown – those with the most to gain from the bombing were Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Syria was in direct contention with Lebanese politicians calling for them to remove Syrian troops. The leader of that political opposition was eliminated by bombing his motorcade.

His son is one of the most corrupt Lebanese leaders in the country's history, and a Saudi pawn. MBS forcing him to resign on Saudi TV (half drugged) cleared up any remaining doubts.

I was offering criticism of Assad, and complements for the senior Hariri who was assassinated. Of course they are probably all corrupt as is normal for that region. Don't try to paint anybody as saints.

Reagan directly caused that attack by taking the side of the Phalangists in a civil war (US ships bombed Shia positions whilst claiming to be there on a 'peacekeeping' mission).

So truck bombing a barracks full of sleeping marines is a fair response.

I don't routinely trade in historical hypotheticals but I wonder if a stronger response from ExPresident Reagan back then might have avoided the Khobar towers, USS Kole, and embassy bombings. This Afghan show of weakness will likely encourage more such terrorism against western assets in the region.

Yes. Assad would always end up conveniently gassing someone everytime he won a battle. Just like that, he would always do the one thing that would cause the Americans to bomb him, exactly when he needed to do it the least.

The Syrian civil war has dropped out of the US news cycle since Russia and Turkey got more involved. We still have a small number of boots in Syria probably for intelligence gathering.

Call me a cynic.

Cynic

Which old conflicts and tension?

Tripoli pirates?

Speaking of support... US-Israel-UK-France-Turkey-Qatar-UAE-Saudi Arabia directly supported Al-Qaeda/Al-Nusra in Syria. US spent billions training lunatics in Jordan as "moderate rebels", only for them to roll into Syria and hand over weapons and allegiance to either Al-Nusra or ISIS. "We didn't know that would happen" is bullshit. No-one's that stupid.

US allies Israel, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey directly armed and funded Al-Qaeda and ISIS. Turkey enabled ISIS financially through trade (bought their oil etc), and provided land access for foreign fighters to join the war. Turkey is a NATO country = NATO directly supported both ISIS and Al-Qaeda.

Indeed Turkey bought ISIS oil and has long had a shaky relationship with Nato (over reforms) and the west. I can't forget how they denied US access to bring armor into Iraq from the north. Rolling heavy armor from the north would stabilized Iraq quickly and changed the complexion of that military engagement. But that is the nature of war.

I'm still amazed how the west got away with this. No-one's holding them accountable for mounting a failed Islamist insurgency against a secular government, and destroying a country already housing millions of refugees from another failed western war in Iraq.


Maybe you want this to be more complicated than it is. US is leaving the middle-east because it no longer needs the oil and American voters no longer have the stomach for more decade long nation building wars. Fastest way to achieving this is peace with Iran and the Taliban, putting a plug on Israeli expansionism, and cutting Saudi Arabia down to size.

that sounds easy, throw our (democratic) Israeli ally under the bus, and empower the destabilizing forces.

This will be difficult to relate to, but the Russians don't sell out their allies.

Ukraine? I guess it depend on how you define allies? .

Neither does Iran or China (Syria was on Iran's side during the Iran-Iraq war). The biggest political coup for Russia was standing by their man and winning.

Russia is opportunistically filling the vacuum left by US withdrawal of military force. Russia is backing Assad to get a port there to base war ships in the region.

Russia and China also border this region. US can come and go as it pleases, they can't.

Indeed, Russia and China have their own domestic islam issues. China is ready to take their turn in the box but too smart to dive in with both feed, but they can't pass up the opportunity mine rare earth metals and other modern economy resources in Afghanistan.
=====

For the US detractors blaming the US for all of the world's conflicts, take solace in President Biden destroying any moral authority we had. This would be interesting to watch if it wasn't playing out in real life.


JR

 

[Banzai]

Saddam was a bad guy and despite his large palaces was not rolling in cash because sanctions prohibited him from freely selling his oil. He gamed the UN program that allowed him to sell oil for food/medicine, getting kickbacks from corrupt businessmen and bankers.

"He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch"

US has always enabled and supported dictators. You never had any moral authority to lose.

As I already shared... the US supported Afghan mujahideen (including OBL) to embarrass and weaken Soviets. Just like they did to us at every opportunity.

Right. Then you spent 20 years pretending to deal with the problem you created. But instead in 2021 there are now an estimated 4 times more terrorists trying to set up mini-caliphates and behead Shia's, Jews and Christians.

Arafat despite winning the Nobel peace prize was not a good guy. Since he has openly vowed to destroy Israel it should be no surprise that they didn't support him.

Ahmed Yassin was better? How's having Hamas on their southern border working out for Israel?

not the mind reading "intent", but facts are facts

Allies are pretty much transactional, I predict that immediately after WWII Germany and Japan were not our greatest allies, now decades later we have developed strong relationships.

Creating relationships is something different. What America does is stab their 'friends' in the back.

Our relationship with Germany a long time Nato ally has been strained by president Biden's recent behavior in Afghanistan.

Whereas 4 years of Trump had no effect on the Germans?

He's also implementing an agreement signed with the Taliban by Trump & Pompeo. 4 different Blue and Red administrations own this mess.

The Afghan military was a strong ally who died for a better future and we not only stopped supporting them, President Biden effectively accused them of being cowards. In that one move he pissed away whatever moral authority we had (or thought we had).

Not entirely wrong accusing them of being cowards, but main reason is none of them were willing to die for a corrupt western puppet. Many men will die for Massoud though (a faction of the Mujahideen previously armed and backed by Iran).

Syria was in direct contention with Lebanese politicians calling for them to remove Syrian troops. The leader of that political opposition was eliminated by bombing his motorcade.

Too simple. Syria pulled out of Lebanon as a result and lost the control it had. Assassination didn't serve them one bit.

I was offering criticism of Assad, and complements for the senior Hariri who was assassinated. Of course they are probably all corrupt as is normal for that region. Don't try to paint anybody as saints.

You kind of were painting him as the saviour of Lebanon...

So truck bombing a barracks full of sleeping marines is a fair response.

Since when is war fair? Once you enter a war, you are a legitimate military target. Emotional arguments, trying to portray these soldiers as innocents, doesn't remove the responsibility of their own leaders.

Somehow these decision makers imagined it was okay to kill Lebanese muslims, and the Lebanese would just take it. They didn't bother to remove their assets from Lebanon first, because Murica...

Some interesting reading:
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/MR-Book-Reviews/March-2020/Book-Review-008/

I don't routinely trade in historical hypotheticals but I wonder if a stronger response from ExPresident Reagan back then might have avoided the Khobar towers, USS Kole, and embassy bombings. This Afghan show of weakness will likely encourage more such terrorism against western assets in the region.

All attacks carried out by Saudi's and Al-Qaeda.

The problem is thinking (or claiming) every attack against your military is terrorism. Marine barracks are a legitimate military target. US naval ships are too. Embassy's aren't, but even that's debatable when they're run by CIA/NSA operatives. The Tehran US embassy was without a doubt a valid military target.

Drone operators flying missions in war zones from the US are valid military targets. When they go home at night to their families, their spouse and children become 'human shields'.

Tripoli pirates?

Read about it now for the first time.

Indeed Turkey bought ISIS oil and has long had a shaky relationship with Nato (over reforms) and the west. I can't forget how they denied US access to bring armor into Iraq from the north. Rolling heavy armor from the north would stabilized Iraq quickly and changed the complexion of that military engagement. But that is the nature of war.

that sounds easy, throw our (democratic) Israeli ally under the bus, and empower the destabilizing forces.

Wouldn't be the first time. Israel serves little geopolitical purpose for the US in a world where its focus is on China. Either Israel reinvents itself or US public opinion will turn against them at a much faster rate than anyone's expecting. Funding gratuitous belligerence doesn't rank high amongst priorities for US taxpayers.

Ukraine? I guess it depend on how you define allies?

Russia doesn't consider Ukraine an ally. They consider it Russia.

Russia is opportunistically filling the vacuum left by US withdrawal of military force. Russia is backing Assad to get a port there to base war ships in the region.

They already had the port and the military connections with Iran to co-ordinate joint action. The only difference with Syria was that it had friends who stepped in to protect it. Otherwise it would have ended up the same as Libya.

Indeed, Russia and China have their own domestic islam issues. China is ready to take their turn in the box but too smart to dive in with both feed, but they can't pass up the opportunity mine rare earth metals and other modern economy resources in Afghanistan.

This is important for the Afghans themselves. Taliban is now in a position where it needs to prove it can provide for the population. Without a foreign invader to give it credibility, they might find it hard to govern.

For the US detractors blaming the US for all of the world's conflicts, take solace in President Biden destroying any moral authority we had. This would be interesting to watch if it wasn't playing out in real life.

You had no moral authority to begin with. See above.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm shocked my arguments weren't persuasive... maybe more tomorrow, or not.

JR

 

[gyraf]

..enjoying it all from the sideline - it's great to see a civilized discussion irl..

 

[JohnRoberts]

"He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch"

US has always enabled and supported dictators. You never had any moral authority to lose.

It's hard to find democracies, especially in that region. Israel is one of the very few and are under increasing stress as American support looks less reliable now.

Right. Then you spent 20 years pretending to deal with the problem you created. But instead in 2021 there are now an estimated 4 times more terrorists trying to set up mini-caliphates and behead Shia's, Jews and Christians.

Radical Islam hates us because of our culture. If that's how this conflict was created then I guess we are guilty. I don't see us bending to shariah law anytime soon so this culture war is likely to continue.

Afghanistan is a desert rest stop on the silk road. Its rare earth wealth is only a recent discovery and yet to be developed (likely by the Chinese). Afghanistans cash crop has been selling drugs (opium extracted from poppy plants.)

Ahmed Yassin was better? How's having Hamas on their southern border working out for Israel?

The history of the jewish nation is not a simple discussion. They are now a democratic nation surrounded by neighbors who pretty much all want to wipe them off the map. In fact these neighbors routinely refuse to recognize Israel as a nation with a right to exist, often leaving it off local maps. Iran has routinely expressed their desire to make Tel Aviv glow in the dark and are actively developing missiles with adequate range, and refining fissile nuclear material to make a nuclear weapon.

The Abraham accord under ex-president Trump created a definite warming between Israel and regional neighbors but the Biden administration is visibly less supportive of Israel.

Creating relationships is something different. What America does is stab their 'friends' in the back.

The Afghan military can certainly make that claim.

Whereas 4 years of Trump had no effect on the Germans?

One major influence of Trump on Germany was to make them live up to their NATO comittiment. In fact I was over in Germany in 1970 on NATO maneuvers (Reforger II, a massing of NATO forces in southern Germany just kilometers away from the Soviets doing the exact same thing on the other side of the border.) I expect Germany is more affected by Merkel's grand immigration experiment to allow in one million migrants (2015/2016). But she closed that window around the time ex President Trump was elected.

He's also implementing an agreement signed with the Taliban by Trump & Pompeo. 4 different Blue and Red administrations own this mess.

That is an hollow partisan talking point. We have watched Biden reverse pretty much every policy Trump left behind, and some that he couldn't (Biden has been reversed by the courts with others pending in lawsuit). I disagree with aspects of the Pompeo withdrawal agreement negotiated with the Taliban (like releasing thousands of Taliban fighters), but that agreement had 4 "conditions" that the Taliban were to honor, before the US military would pull out. One of those conditions was power sharing with the Kabul government, so the Taliban clearly broke that agreement. It is disingenuous for President Biden to claim that he had to follow some Trump agreement that he clearly isn't. The thousands of Taliban fighters released by Pompeo to get the Taliban to the table, pales compared to all the prisoners released since the Taliban takeover.

Not entirely wrong accusing them of being cowards, but main reason is none of them were willing to die for a corrupt western puppet. Many men will die for Massoud though (a faction of the Mujahideen previously armed and backed by Iran).

Tens of thousands of them fought and died for the corrupt western puppet (Kabul government). They were fighting for a better future for themselves and their children. At this later stage the western nations were only providing support for the Afghan military who was doing the fighting and dying, but after we withdrew that support it was just common sense for them look to align with the new rulers in power.

I think there is one warlord still resisting the Taliban in the north but not enough to slow their take over of the country.

Too simple. Syria pulled out of Lebanon as a result and lost the control it had. Assassination didn't serve them one bit.

It clearly didn't work... of course my observations from great distance in passing is simplistic.

You kind of were painting him as the saviour of Lebanon...

I seem to recall that Lebanese were very optimistic but impossible to credibly debate that historical hypothetical, since he was assassinated.

Since when is war fair? Once you enter a war, you are a legitimate military target. Emotional arguments, trying to portray these soldiers as innocents, doesn't remove the responsibility of their own leaders.

The definition of "war" has evolved. The US military was not there to take anything from Lebanon, but trying to bring peace to the region by suppressing fighting between different factions. Trying to be the world's police force is a losing strategy.

Classic wars involve landed nations, often fighting over control of those lands. The mistake ISIS made trying to stand up a caliphate in Iraq/Syria was that they declared themselves a nation with territory. The world saw how easy that was to take down.

Somehow these decision makers imagined it was okay to kill Lebanese muslims, and the Lebanese would just take it. They didn't bother to remove their assets from Lebanon first, because Murica...

Like radical islam thinks that its OK to kill infidels?

Some interesting reading:
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/MR-Book-Reviews/March-2020/Book-Review-008/

All attacks carried out by Saudi's and Al-Qaeda.

The problem is thinking (or claiming) every attack against your military is terrorism. Marine barracks are a legitimate military target. US naval ships are too. Embassy's aren't, but even that's debatable when they're run by CIA/NSA operatives. The Tehran US embassy was without a doubt a valid military target.

But who are we at war with? Radical Islam? They have declared war against us.

Drone operators flying missions in war zones from the US are valid military targets. When they go home at night to their families, their spouse and children become 'human shields'.

Speaking of drones, and this was inevitable, Turkey is using a lot of short range (less expensive) drones in regional fighting in Syria.

Read about it now for the first time.

There was a pretty interesting history book written by Brian Kilmeade. "Thomas Jefferson and the Tripoli Pirates: The Forgotten War That Changed American History". Prior to that we were isolationist.

Wouldn't be the first time. Israel serves little geopolitical purpose for the US in a world where its focus is on China. Either Israel reinvents itself or US public opinion will turn against them at a much faster rate than anyone's expecting. Funding gratuitous belligerence doesn't rank high amongst priorities for US taxpayers.

Israel is supported by the US for being a democracy, they can't deny the will of their own people (thats what democracies do). That will of the israeli people seems to irritate their neighbors to violence.

Russia doesn't consider Ukraine an ally. They consider it Russia.

yup and China considers Taiwan, China... I expect both world powers to get even more territorially aggressive since the US demonstrated weakness. China has already been pressing the Indian border too.

They already had the port and the military connections with Iran to co-ordinate joint action. The only difference with Syria was that it had friends who stepped in to protect it. Otherwise it would have ended up the same as Libya.

friends..? as I already stated Russia moved in to fill the vacuum created when the US withdrew.

This is important for the Afghans themselves. Taliban is now in a position where it needs to prove it can provide for the population. Without a foreign invader to give it credibility, they might find it hard to govern.

They are going to find it difficult keep the lights on and water flowing without massive economic aid from outside nations. China was already trying to hook them with infrastructure spending (belt and road initiative), and will now step that up.

The Afghan people already know the Taliban well and desperately tried to escape by clinging to the fuselage of aircraft (that guy who fell off and died was reportedly an Afghan soccer star). There will be a new rush of political migrants leaving or trying to leave Afghanistan.

You had no moral authority to begin with. See above.

Opinions vary, as I already stated we have less now than we did before President Biden took office.

JR

PS: The new administration talking point is to not call citizens and allies stuck in Afghanistan "stranded", but they haven't offered a new substitute word like "challenge" was preferred for describing the border crisis.

 

[Banzai]

It's hard to find democracies, especially in that region. Israel is one of the very few and are under increasing stress as American support looks less reliable now.

The Only Democracy In The Middle East ©

Radical Islam hates us because of our culture. If that's how this conflict was created then I guess we are guilty. I don't see us bending to shariah law anytime soon so this culture war is likely to continue.

Garbage. Radical Islam is an American-Saudi construct funded by Saudi petro-dollars. All started in 1979 with the anti-monarchist Iranian revolution, The Great Mosque siege where the House of Saud was forced to make a deal with the Wahabists to guarantee its own survival, and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that led to massive US/Saudi funding of Salafist brigades.

Otherwise muslims hate you because you keep bombing their countries and killing their children. There isn't a single Islamic terrorist group in the world who's goal is to convert Americans or impose Shariah in America. All of them have as primary aim to expel American troops from muslim lands.

Claims of a culture war is Bannon level garbage. No-one hates you for your freedom. Stop killing muslims and leave the middle-east, and muslims will stop killing you.

The history of the jewish nation is not a simple discussion. They are now a democratic nation surrounded by neighbors who pretty much all want to wipe them off the map.

False statement. Israel is surrounded by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt.

Lebanese hate the Israeli's because of a 20 year military occupation and constant bombing raids that repeatedly destroy their country. Syrians hate the Israeli's because of the occupied Golan Heights, but their leaders have kept peace for over 50 years. Jordan and Egypt both have peace deals with Israel.

Not one of the Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian or Egyptian governments wants to 'wipe Israel off the map'.

In fact these neighbors routinely refuse to recognize Israel as a nation with a right to exist, often leaving it off local maps.

Israel routinely refuses Palestinians the right to exist, and goes as far as claiming that Palestine and the Palestinian people are a myth.

Israel also refuses to recognise or respect the sovereignty of its neighbours as shown by its near daily violation of Lebanese airspace and weekly bombings of Syria. If you don't the respect the rights of others, why should they respect yours?

Iran has routinely expressed their desire to make Tel Aviv glow in the dark and are actively developing missiles with adequate range, and refining fissile nuclear material to make a nuclear weapon.

Simply not true. Iran has never expressed any desire to nuke Tel Aviv or Israel, or to kill Jews, or to do any of the 1000 different things everyone claims they've said.

Meet Dan Meridor, Minister of Intelligence and Atomic Energy, and Deputy Prime Minister of Israel during the Ahmedinejad era:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4216986,00.html
They also already have the missiles to hit Israel, and aren't building a nuclear weapon. If they wanted the bomb, then they already have it – basic assumption is they have at least 1 functioning nuclear warhead that was sold to them by AQ Khan along with blueprints of how to produce more. There are also claims by European intelligence agencies that North Korea tested two Iranian made bombs in 2010.

South Africa and France helped Israel test their bombs, so nothing new.

The Abraham accord under ex-president Trump created a definite warming between Israel and regional neighbors but the Biden administration is visibly less supportive of Israel.

Gulf Arabs aren't Israeli neighbours. They're Iran's neighbours... Only thing that unites all of them is a fear of a free Iranian economy. On tourism and culture alone Iran's economy would dominate the ME. The Iran problem isn't ideological or military, it's economic.

Also warming of ties with regional dictators isn't going to solve any of Israel's legitimacy problems in the Arab world. That can only be resolved with the Palestinians. Regular Gulf Arabs and Moroccans aren't happy their countries are selling the Palestinians out so cheaply.

One major influence of Trump on Germany was to make them live up to their NATO comittiment. In fact I was over in Germany in 1970 on NATO maneuvers (Reforger II, a massing of NATO forces in southern Germany just kilometers away from the Soviets doing the exact same thing on the other side of the border.) I expect Germany is more affected by Merkel's grand immigration experiment to allow in one million migrants (2015/2016). But she closed that window around the time ex President Trump was elected.

Not migrants. Refugees. From several wars caused by the US and NATO in the Middle-East.

Removing Gaddafi didn't help either.

That is an hollow partisan talking point. We have watched Biden reverse pretty much every policy Trump left behind, and some that he couldn't (Biden has been reversed by the courts with others pending in lawsuit). I disagree with aspects of the Pompeo withdrawal agreement negotiated with the Taliban (like releasing thousands of Taliban fighters), but that agreement had 4 "conditions" that the Taliban were to honor, before the US military would pull out. One of those conditions was power sharing with the Kabul government, so the Taliban clearly broke that agreement.

How did the Taliban break the agreement? Kabul "government" fled the country.

It is disingenuous for President Biden to claim that he had to follow some Trump agreement that he clearly isn't. The thousands of Taliban fighters released by Pompeo to get the Taliban to the table, pales compared to all the prisoners released since the Taliban takeover.

He's not claiming it. He's the one taking all the shit for it.

Trump is bragging Biden wanted to reverse the decision, but couldn't.

Tens of thousands of them fought and died for the corrupt western puppet (Kabul government). They were fighting for a better future for themselves and their children. At this later stage the western nations were only providing support for the Afghan military who was doing the fighting and dying, but after we withdrew that support it was just common sense for them look to align with the new rulers in power.

Many of these are phantom soldiers in ghost armies that never existed. Afghan commanders would fake entire regiments and take the salaries paid by the US for themselves. US was fully aware of this but didn't/couldn't do anything about it.

Afghan military was never a viable fighting force.

I think there is one warlord still resisting the Taliban in the north but not enough to slow their take over of the country.

Massoud's son / Northern Alliance.

The definition of "war" has evolved. The US military was not there to take anything from Lebanon, but trying to bring peace to the region by suppressing fighting between different factions. Trying to be the world's police force is a losing strategy.

US military intervened in a civil war and bombed and killed Lebanese.

Peacekeepers don't bomb or kill people. Reagan paid the price for being stupid.

Classic wars involve landed nations, often fighting over control of those lands. The mistake ISIS made trying to stand up a caliphate in Iraq/Syria was that they declared themselves a nation with territory. The world saw how easy that was to take down.

Wasn't that easy. If it wasn't for the Kurds, Hezbollah, and the SAA, the Caliphate would still be there... and American planes would still be bombing empty deserts miraculously missing 100 truck oil convoys for an entire year.......

Like radical islam thinks that its OK to kill infidels?

They do think it's OK. Was rammed into their heads since childhood by American/Saudi funded radicalisation programs, and the Saudi education system. Most mosques in the world are Saudi funded. Koran's in US prisons are Saudi versions. All of it is known but nothing's done about it.

The number one target and victims of Salafist terrorism are Shia muslims. It's muslim on muslim warfare, created for the sole purpose of keeping a few fat Arabs in power.

But who are we at war with? Radical Islam? They have declared war against us.

You're at war with yourselves. Rest of the world is wondering when you'll actually bomb Saudi Arabia.

Israel is supported by the US for being a democracy, they can't deny the will of their own people (thats what democracies do). That will of the israeli people seems to irritate their neighbors to violence.

More of the "they hate us for our freedom" bullshit. It's Israel's continual bombing of its neighbours and oppression of Palestinians that 'irritates' their neighbours.

Otherwise, did you notice neither Al-Qaeda or ISIS ever attack Israel? How come groups that claim to represent and fight for muslims and Islam, completely ignore the Palestinians and never target the Israeli's? How come Israel was never worried about ISIS taking over Syria, and never once intervened or bombed a Salafist caliphate set up in their own backyard?

How many Israeli soldiers fought in Afghanistan and Iraq next to their dear American friends?

Lots of questions, lots of simple answers.

yup and China considers Taiwan, China... I expect both world powers to get even more territorially aggressive since the US demonstrated weakness. China has already been pressing the Indian border too.

The US is bankrupt and weak. Wasted all your fortune and human capital on stupid endless wars.

friends..? as I already stated Russia moved in to fill the vacuum created when the US withdrew.

Russia, Iran and Syria were friends. There was nothing new about these relationships.

You don't see Russia rushing into Iraq or Afghanistan to fill any US vaccuums. The prize in Syria was to show that if you're allied with Russia, they won't stab you in the back like the US. They'll stick by you till the end. Showing off Russian and Iranian weapons systems was a bonus.

They are going to find it difficult keep the lights on and water flowing without massive economic aid from outside nations. China was already trying to hook them with infrastructure spending (belt and road initiative), and will now step that up.

Right. That's why the first step in defeating the Taliban has to be the removal of all foreign troops from Afghan soil. Force them to govern.

The Afghan people already know the Taliban well and desperately tried to escape by clinging to the fuselage of aircraft (that guy who fell off and died was reportedly an Afghan soccer star). There will be a new rush of political migrants leaving or trying to leave Afghanistan.

Images from Kabul don't represent the entire country. Parts of the population will welcome the return of Shariah, as Afghanistan is still a highly religious country.

There are already 4 million Afghan refugees in Iran, 2 million in Pakistan. The small number that make it to Europe are nothing in comparison to the numbers that flee to neighbouring countries. Make sure to pile on more sanctions on Iran as they're forced to (again) clean up the mess you leave behind!

Opinions vary, as I already stated we have less now than we did before President Biden took office.

You had no credibility, let alone authority, with Trump in office. Still have neither with Biden.

PS: The new administration talking point is to not call citizens and allies stuck in Afghanistan "stranded", but they haven't offered a new substitute word like "challenge" was preferred for describing the border crisis.

Curious why Covid wasn't able to kill off politics altogether.

Why does anyone still care who the President is?

 

[JohnRoberts]

The Only Democracy In The Middle East ©

?

Garbage. Radical Islam is an American-Saudi construct funded by Saudi petro-dollars. All started in 1979 with the anti-monarchist Iranian revolution, The Great Mosque siege where the House of Saud was forced to make a deal with the Wahabists to guarantee its own survival, and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that led to massive US/Saudi funding of Salafist brigades.

The Iranian revolution overthrowing the Shah of Iran was not radical islam, but created a strict conservative theocracy who begin most speeches with "death to America". Iran does promote terrorism in the region but tries to avoid getting their fingerprints on the IEDs and drones.

Otherwise muslims hate you because you keep bombing their countries and killing their children. There isn't a single Islamic terrorist group in the world who's goal is to convert Americans or impose Shariah in America. All of them have as primary aim to expel American troops from muslim lands.

And we do not want to be there, but events like the 9/11 WTC attack instead of making us turn tail and run, just strengthens our resolve to take the fight to the terrorists where they live. Of course I can't speak for President Biden.

Claims of a culture war is Bannon level garbage. No-one hates you for your freedom. Stop killing muslims and leave the middle-east, and muslims will stop killing you.

Simplistic and wrong, we didn't start this fight.

False statement. Israel is surrounded by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt.

Geography lesson? Israel is hated by more than their immediate neighbors.

Lebanese hate the Israeli's because of a 20 year military occupation and constant bombing raids that repeatedly destroy their country.

Israel invaded to stop rocket attacks.

Syrians hate the Israeli's because of the occupied Golan Heights, but their leaders have kept peace for over 50 years.

As I shared before the history of Israel is complicated.

Jordan and Egypt both have peace deals with Israel.

Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in the Yom Kippur war 1973. Israel made short work of their armies.

Not one of the Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian or Egyptian governments wants to 'wipe Israel off the map'.

Egypt and Jordan have decided it is more productive to trade with Israel that wage war, Syria and Lebanon are not friendly neighbors.

Israel routinely refuses Palestinians the right to exist, and goes as far as claiming that Palestine and the Palestinian people are a myth.

huh? Israel has allowed arabs to become Israeli citizens , many of whom identify as Palestinian. The Israel/Palestinian conflict is kept inflamed by many of Israels detractors from around the world including Europe.

Israel also refuses to recognise or respect the sovereignty of its neighbours as shown by its near daily violation of Lebanese airspace and weekly bombings of Syria. If you don't the respect the rights of others, why should they respect yours?

Typically in retribution for missile attacks on Israeli population, to degrade the ability to launch more missiles. Israel has a pretty effective anti-missile shield (iron dome), but it is not 100% effective.

Simply not true. Iran has never expressed any desire to nuke Tel Aviv or Israel, or to kill Jews, or to do any of the 1000 different things everyone claims they've said.

Just denying doesn't make it so. Ahmedinejad was more vocal in his speeches given for local consumption. His speeches at the UN for western consumption were less aggressive.

Meet Dan Meridor, Minister of Intelligence and Atomic Energy, and Deputy Prime Minister of Israel during the Ahmedinejad era:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4216986,00.html
They also already have the missiles to hit Israel, and aren't building a nuclear weapon. If they wanted the bomb, then they already have it – basic assumption is they have at least 1 functioning nuclear warhead that was sold to them by AQ Khan along with blueprints of how to produce more. There are also claims by European intelligence agencies that North Korea tested two Iranian made bombs in 2010.

you know how they spell ASSumption. North Korea was linked to working with Pakistan (a nuclear power). I suspect North Korea were testing their own nuclear weapons to gain world credibility. Of course Iran is a member of the "we hate America" club (along with Venezuela, Cuba, etc)

South Africa and France helped Israel test their bombs, so nothing new.

That Israel has a nuclear weapon is not official knowledge, but the suspicion should be a deterrent for their many enemies.

Gulf Arabs aren't Israeli neighbours. They're Iran's neighbours... Only thing that unites all of them is a fear of a free Iranian economy. On tourism and culture alone Iran's economy would dominate the ME. The Iran problem isn't ideological or military, it's economic.

huh... Iran's economic sanctions are imposed because of their bad behavior, not fear of some cultural superiority stealing tourists.

Also warming of ties with regional dictators isn't going to solve any of Israel's legitimacy problems in the Arab world. That can only be resolved with the Palestinians. Regular Gulf Arabs and Moroccans aren't happy their countries are selling the Palestinians out so cheaply.

I have watched this for decades and the Palestinian conflict has been kept inflamed as a wedge issue to deny Israel peace.

Not migrants. Refugees. From several wars caused by the US and NATO in the Middle-East.

Economic migrants, welcomed by Merkel hoping for cheap labor to keep her factories humming, unfortunately they brought their culture with them.

Removing Gaddafi didn't help either.

Gaddafi had already abandoned his nuclear ambitions and stopped actively supporting terrorism. Killing him served zero purpose and just created another lawless territory in the region. Not the only mistake made by exPresident Obama in the region, who led that Nato operation from behind.

How did the Taliban break the agreement? Kabul "government" fled the country.

President Ghani fled Kabul on aug 19th after multiple regional capitals had already fallen to the Taliban and they had declared Afghanistan an Islamic emirate. President Biden withdrew from Baghran military air port in the middle of the night July 5th, telegraphing a removal of western support. President Ghani fled for his life.

He's not claiming it. He's the one taking all the shit for it.

He is correctly taking criticism for his gross dereliction of duty. It is embarrassing to watch him try to blame everyone but himself (including blaming the Afghans).

Trump is bragging Biden wanted to reverse the decision, but couldn't.

ex-President Trump is understandably critical of President Biden's handling of the troop withdrawal.

It is remarkable how President Biden could screw up something as popular as withdrawing from Afghanistan. Everybody wants to end this black hole in the sand. Despite strong bipartisan support, he still screwed it up. The gang that still can't shoot straight.

Many of these are phantom soldiers in ghost armies that never existed. Afghan commanders would fake entire regiments and take the salaries paid by the US for themselves. US was fully aware of this but didn't/couldn't do anything about it.

The amount of corruption there is high, even for the middle east. For years we paid Pakistan who perpetuated the conflict because they profited from it.

Afghan military was never a viable fighting force.

Not without effective air power, that the west withdrew.

Massoud's son / Northern Alliance.

The Bush administration worked with the Northern alliance 20 years ago to take out the al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan in only weeks. Bush tried to declare it over with a poorly received photo op, and was mocked by the political oppostion. The military industrial complex didn't want the music to stop and congress kept the cash spigot open.

US military intervened in a civil war and bombed and killed Lebanese.

Peacekeepers don't bomb or kill people. Reagan paid the price for being stupid.

I can't address that specific claim but many terrorist use human shields making it impossible to avoid all civilian casualties. This is ugly any way you cut it.

Wasn't that easy. If it wasn't for the Kurds, Hezbollah, and the SAA, the Caliphate would still be there... and American planes would still be bombing empty deserts miraculously missing 100 truck oil convoys for an entire year.......

I have already given props to Peshmerga (Kurds). ISIS was selling oil to Syria and Turkey, this revenue stream was interrupted by squashing the caliphate.

They do think it's OK. Was rammed into their heads since childhood by American/Saudi funded radicalisation programs, and the Saudi education system. Most mosques in the world are Saudi funded. Koran's in US prisons are Saudi versions. All of it is known but nothing's done about it.

Its been known for decades,,, US prisons were (are?) incubators for radical islam.

The number one target and victims of Salafist terrorism are Shia muslims. It's muslim on muslim warfare, created for the sole purpose of keeping a few fat Arabs in power.

oh-oh we might actually agree on that...

You're at war with yourselves. Rest of the world is wondering when you'll actually bomb Saudi Arabia.

Iran and Hezbollah bombed the Khobar towers (housing US servicemen), more recent (Iran backed) Houthi have attacked Saudi oil infrastructure with drones and missiles.

More of the "they hate us for our freedom" bullshit. It's Israel's continual bombing of its neighbours and oppression of Palestinians that 'irritates' their neighbours.

Strategic degrading of missile batteries. Hamas in Gaza routinely hides weapons and munitions in hospitals and Mosques, using civilians as shields. They are at least complicit and IMO responsible for many civilian casualties.

Otherwise, did you notice neither Al-Qaeda or ISIS ever attack Israel? How come groups that claim to represent and fight for muslims and Islam, completely ignore the Palestinians and never target the Israeli's? How come Israel was never worried about ISIS taking over Syria, and never once intervened or bombed a Salafist caliphate set up in their own backyard?

Israel is probably more focussed on their own survival.

How many Israeli soldiers fought in Afghanistan and Iraq next to their dear American friends?

not a nato member

Lots of questions, lots of simple answers.

simple and wrong.

The US is bankrupt and weak. Wasted all your fortune and human capital on stupid endless wars.

Neither, but President Biden is trying to spend another $3.5T right now to buy votes. He and his party are saddling our children with a huge sovereign debt. (The republicans are also guilty of overspending). All of the migrants flowing across our open southern border are not coming because we are bankrupt.) SCOTUS just reversed President Biden's cancellation of ex-President Trumps effective stay in Mexico border policy. We'll see if the administration ignores SCOTUS again like they did by extending the mortgage amnesty program.

Russia, Iran and Syria were friends. There was nothing new about these relationships.

Russian economy is very energy focussed and wants long term access to the huge energy reserves (estimated at 18 to 35 billion barrels) under the Caspian Sea. Syria is less obviously mercenary but reportedly has some 11 warships based there.

You don't see Russia rushing into Iraq or Afghanistan to fill any US vaccuums.

Russia already got spanked in Afghanistan (graveyard of kingdoms) after getting burned you don't touch the hot stove again.

The prize in Syria was to show that if you're allied with Russia, they won't stab you in the back like the US. They'll stick by you till the end. Showing off Russian and Iranian weapons systems was a bonus.

International relations are a 3 way scrum between US, Russia, and now China. Embarrassing and weakening each other is what they do, as if the world is a zero sum game.

Right. That's why the first step in defeating the Taliban has to be the removal of all foreign troops from Afghan soil. Force them to govern.

that sounds easy.. we'll see soon enough

Images from Kabul don't represent the entire country. Parts of the population will welcome the return of Shariah, as Afghanistan is still a highly religious country.

and parts of the population are desperately trying to escape.

There are already 4 million Afghan refugees in Iran, 2 million in Pakistan. The small number that make it to Europe are nothing in comparison to the numbers that flee to neighbouring countries. Make sure to pile on more sanctions on Iran as they're forced to (again) clean up the mess you leave behind!

Turkey is already saying they can't take refugees. These people are not escaping a western occupation but the reality of Taliban rule.

You had no credibility, let alone authority, with Trump in office. Still have neither with Biden.

opinions vary about ex-President Trump but I agree President Biden is an embarrassment.

Curious why Covid wasn't able to kill off politics altogether.

kill it? It energized it.... I fear politicians will try to extend the lock downs through mid term elections next year.

Why does anyone still care who the President is?

Because of everything he has screwed up. I truly miss the good old days when we could ignore Washington DC between elections. Now partisan politics has infiltrated every aspect of daily life.

I feel guilty about complaining we have a good economy and generally a good life, but seem to have gone off the rails and are headed for a ditch. I hope we can recover and get back on a straight even course.

JR

 

[Banzai]

?

Israel is not the only democracy in the middle east.

The Iranian revolution overthrowing the Shah of Iran was not radical islam, but created a strict conservative theocracy who begin most speeches with "death to America". Iran does promote terrorism in the region but tries to avoid getting their fingerprints on the IEDs and drones.

Iran has promoted the killing of American troops for 40 years. Killing occupation soldiers isn't terrorism. It's self-defence.

You're living in a fantasy where dropping bombs from planes and shooting missiles is warfare, but IED's are 'terrorism'. War is war.

And we do not want to be there, but events like the 9/11 WTC attack instead of making us turn tail and run, just strengthens our resolve to take the fight to the terrorists where they live. Of course I can't speak for President Biden.

Hubris. World didn't start in 2001. You were bombing Iraq on a weekly basis since 1990, operating from bases in Saudi Arabia. You abandoned the Mujahideen with no support after the Soviets left etc etc etc

Simplistic and wrong, we didn't start this fight.

You started this fight when you created the Salafist terrorist militia's!

You're directly responsible for their existence.

Geography lesson? Israel is hated by more than their immediate neighbors.

Their immediate neighbours are the only ones who "surround" them. Who cares what Malaysians or Pakistani's think of them. Who cares what Iran thinks of them.

If tomorrow the US abandons Israel, their number one supporter in the world would be Iran. Find it strange you Americans don't realise Iran's actions are always in opposition to the US. Whatever side you pick, Iran will be on the other side to make whatever you're doing as difficult and expensive as possible.

You seem to believe it's the other way round.

Israel invaded to stop rocket attacks.

When do Israel's neighbours get to invade Israel to stop Israeli rocket attacks?

War for peace is another scammy American construct. Escalation cycles go both ways. If Israel can endlessly escalate, then so can the other side.

As I shared before the history of Israel is complicated.
Egypt and Syria attacked Israel in the Yom Kippur war 1973. Israel made short work of their armies.

No, Israel didn't make short work of anything. The attack took them by surprise, and they were on the verge of being thrown into the sea. Israeli's then threatened to launch 13 nuclear warheads if the Americans didn't provide military resupplies (Samson Option).

No-one was willing to grant the Americans a base for refuelling on their way to Israel, except Portugal. If they couldn't refuel and resupply the Israeli's, there would be no more Israel.

Egypt and Jordan have decided it is more productive to trade with Israel that wage war, Syria and Lebanon are not friendly neighbors.

Israel is the worst neighbour in the world. The peace deals were for land.

huh? Israel has allowed arabs to become Israeli citizens , many of whom identify as Palestinian. The Israel/Palestinian conflict is kept inflamed by many of Israels detractors from around the world including Europe.

Huh? "Allowed" Arabs to become Israeli's? Think how twisted that is, when those Arab-Israeli's are the Palestinians who didn't leave or weren't expelled from their lands in 1948.

Arabs also aren't universally muslim, most Arab-Israeli's are christians.

These same 'Israeli's' are treated like 2nd class citizens, and under the Nation-State laws they have no right to self-determination as non-jews. Why do you think they supported Hamas in the last war?

Typically in retribution for missile attacks on Israeli population, to degrade the ability to launch more missiles. Israel has a pretty effective anti-missile shield (iron dome), but it is not 100% effective.

Syria and Lebanon don't shoot rockets at Israel. Palestinians do. If you're incapable of looking at a conflict without bias, the conversation is pointless.

Israel has been bombing Syria for close to 10 years. Only thing to go the other way was a mistaken ISIS assault on an IDF patrol, for which ISIS quickly apologised.

The Islamic State, apologised, to Israel.

Just denying doesn't make it so. Ahmedinejad was more vocal in his speeches given for local consumption. His speeches at the UN for western consumption were less aggressive.

Minister of Intelligence of Israel denies it. You know more than him?

you know how they spell ASSumption. North Korea was linked to working with Pakistan (a nuclear power). I suspect North Korea were testing their own nuclear weapons to gain world credibility. Of course Iran is a member of the "we hate America" club (along with Venezuela, Cuba, etc)

You list countries the US suffocates with sanctions, then wonder why they hate Americans...

AQ Khan sold plans for the bomb to North Korea, Iran, and Libya.

That Israel has a nuclear weapon is not official knowledge, but the suspicion should be a deterrent for their many enemies.

It is official knowledge.

Mordechai Vanunu.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/28/mordechai-vanunu-israel-spying-nuclear-1988

huh... Iran's economic sanctions are imposed because of their bad behavior, not fear of some cultural superiority stealing tourists.

If you want to be a mouthpiece for the US State Department, then you're on the wrong site. Every single conflict in that region is about power. Not a single one is about morality.

Have a look at how many UNESCO sites there are in Iran. 5 to 10'000 year old country. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel, are barely 200 years old between them.

If you don't get the attraction and natural power that countries like Egypt, Iran, or China have, then you don't understand how this world works.

I have watched this for decades and the Palestinian conflict has been kept inflamed as a wedge issue to deny Israel peace.

Yes, everything is an evil plot to deny Israel peace. 7 million Palestinian refugees are a myth. They don't exist.

Economic migrants, welcomed by Merkel hoping for cheap labor to keep her factories humming, unfortunately they brought their culture with them.

What factories?? Germany has a high-tech service based economy.

Gaddafi had already abandoned his nuclear ambitions and stopped actively supporting terrorism. Killing him served zero purpose and just created another lawless territory in the region. Not the only mistake made by exPresident Obama in the region, who led that Nato operation from behind.

Obama had nothing to do with it. French killed him.

President Ghani fled Kabul on aug 19th after multiple regional capitals had already fallen to the Taliban and they had declared Afghanistan an Islamic emirate. President Biden withdrew from Baghran military air port in the middle of the night July 5th, telegraphing a removal of western support. President Ghani fled for his life.

You said yourself, 'power sharing agreement'. In what kind of power sharing does the Taliban stay hidden and not roll into Kabul?

Ghani fled for his bank account. Same as every other puppet.

He is correctly taking criticism for his gross dereliction of duty. It is embarrassing to watch him try to blame everyone but himself (including blaming the Afghans).

ex-President Trump is understandably critical of President Biden's handling of the troop withdrawal.

Not without effective air power, that the west withdrew.

They were still getting routed by the Taliban.

The Bush administration worked with the Northern alliance 20 years ago to take out the al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan in only weeks. Bush tried to declare it over with a poorly received photo op, and was mocked by the political oppostion. The military industrial complex didn't want the music to stop and congress kept the cash spigot open.

No. Bush administration worked with Iran to take out the camps. They had no intelligence on Afghanistan or access to the Northern Alliance. Iran gave them everything. Then the dipshit labelled them part of an axis of evil, and invaded Iraq.

Everything during the Soviet war went through the ISI, who kept the CIA in the dark and out of the country.

I can't address that specific claim but many terrorist use human shields making it impossible to avoid all civilian casualties. This is ugly any way you cut it.

US destroyers bombed Shia military positions. They killed Lebanese muslims. Nothing to do with human shields or terrorists.

Hezbollah didn't even exist when they blew up the barracks.

I have already given props to Peshmerga (Kurds). ISIS was selling oil to Syria and Turkey, this revenue stream was interrupted by squashing the caliphate.

Revenue stream was interrupted by the bombing of oil convoys by Russian jets.

Iran and Hezbollah bombed the Khobar towers (housing US servicemen).

Saudi Arabian nationals bombed Khobar. Can't blame everything on Iran.

more recent (Iran backed) Houthi have attacked Saudi oil infrastructure with drones and missiles.

Yes, they're at war with Saudi Arabia. We're back to Saudi planes flattening an entire country being okay, but if the other side dares respond, it's "terrorism".

Strategic degrading of missile batteries. Hamas in Gaza routinely hides weapons and munitions in hospitals and Mosques, using civilians as shields. They are at least complicit and IMO responsible for many civilian casualties.

Right. Have you ever seen Gaza? Where exactly do you imagine they should build their bases? In the sea?

Israel is probably more focussed on their own survival.

US spent $8 trillion 'fighting terrorism'. How much of your money did Israel spend?

not a nato member

One sided relationship you're paying for out of your own pocket.

simple and wrong.

Right. We all imagined Israel giving medical treatment to Al-Qaeda and ISIS militants, and arming Jihadists to fight Assad. Never happened.

Neither, but President Biden is trying to spend another $3.5T right now to buy votes. He and his party are saddling our children with a huge sovereign debt. (The republicans are also guilty of overspending).

"We have a gigantic debt we can never repay, but we're not bankrupt"

Russian economy is very energy focussed and wants long term access to the huge energy reserves (estimated at 18 to 35 billion barrels) under the Caspian Sea. Syria is less obviously mercenary but reportedly has some 11 warships based there.

Russia borders the Caspian. What's in their part of it is theirs. Prize of the Caspian isn't oil either. It's gas.

Russia already got spanked in Afghanistan (graveyard of kingdoms) after getting burned you don't touch the hot stove again.

Russian puppet government lasted 3 years after the Soviets left. Yours cost a trillion dollars and collapsed before you even left...

So who spanked who?

and parts of the population are desperately trying to escape.

They've been desperately trying to escape for the last 40 years. It's Afghanistan. Poorest country in the world.

Turkey is already saying they can't take refugees. These people are not escaping a western occupation but the reality of Taliban rule.

You don't get it. When you invaded Iraq, you created an enormous mess with millions of refugees. Neighbouring countries took all of them in. Made that same mess 10 times worse when you armed jihadists in Syria.

You created another 20 year mess in Afghanistan, and when you leave, all the rest of Afghanistan's neighbours get to clean it up, again. Blame the Taliban all you want, but at least they're Afghans.

Why were you there?

 

[JohnRoberts]

To save time and avoid more personal insults, I will observe that my version of world history is not in agreement with yours.

JR

PS: Speaking of blame, now the Biden administration is blaming the American citizens for being stranded in Afghanistan saying they were warned.

 

[Banzai]

There aren't multiple versions of history. Neither is parroting the claims of the US propaganda department conducive to any kind of productive conversation.

US government is run by career politicians. It's incoherent to claim that everything they say regarding domestic politics is a lie, whilst asserting that everything they say regarding foreign policy is iron clad truth.

The Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, and Yemen narratives are all lies.

 

[JohnRoberts]

There are at least two versions of history right here...

I can easily find better use for my time.

JR

 

[Banzai]

There can be a million different versions of truth and half baked truths (including your opinions), but only 1 thing actually happened.

Here's a primer on Operation Nickel Grass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grasshttps://www.airforcemag.com/article/1298nickel/
Not that you'll read any of it or watch the Youtube video. That's for anyone who cares about real history. Not "America is a force for good" fiction.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It has been a good week for enemies of America..

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

“It has been said that although God cannot alter the past, historians can -

I recorded a c-span book interview of an author who wrote a new book about the history of the last 20 years in Afghanistan... "The Afghanistan Papers" by Craig Whitlock. I only watched the first few minutes but he was so correct about the first couple of years after 9/11 I didn't feel the need to watch (or read more).

I expect to hear a lot of creative history presented as we approach the 9/11 anniversary.

as usual opinions vary.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Its been a while so a couple observations... Iran backed militias in Iraq just popped three drones into the Iraqi prime minister's house. They didn't get him and nobody has claimed responsibility but Iran is the main player in the area with that capability. They have poped a few drones into US bases trying to kill US servicemen. The Iran backed groups lost a bunch of seats in the recent election so it appears they are trying to assassinate the PM if they can't win with votes. I am optimistic about the Iraqi public rejecting Iran's influence, but Iran seems even more aggressive now.

===

For another unintended consequence about the bungled pull out from Afghanistan, while there is still no fair accounting for Americans left behind, the ten thousand or so interpreters left behind who helped NATO forces for the last several years are now considered spies by the Taliban (they kind of were) and are marked for execution. With no significant western help they are joining ISIS the local enemy of the Taliban for protection. Of course ISIS appreciates their training and experience.

This may not end well for us or them.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

More international movements.

Russia is massing troops on the Ukraine border. Putin enjoyed his Nord stream pipeline win and doesn't want the Ukraine joining NATO.

China has pretty much locked down Hong Kong and is applying pressure on Taiwan (with military overflights.) China is reportedly exploring developing a military base on the east (Atlantic ) coat of Africa. Equatorial Guinea’s port city of Bata for the base. China's Road and Bridge company (Belt and roads initiative) already improved the deep water port.

Iran is still accumulating fissile material to join the nuclear club while ignoring international restictions.

It will be interesting to see how the world deals with next Olympics in China.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Erdogan is back in the news announcing a visit to Saudi Arabia next month. This new warming of relations may be related to Erdogan's currency problem. Turkish inflation is currently running 30% and he still refuses to raise interest rates to cool that inflation. Saudis have deep pockets so could help him, but he needs to raise his interest rates, like the rest of the world is.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

ME conflicts are still developing and evolving.

Erdogan is in the news again looking to purchase American jet fighters. This purchase will not be rubber stamped because of his close cooperation with Russia in the region (Syria).
==
Kurdish fighters in Syria (with US air support) reportedly just took back a prison that ISIS had taken over. There may be some 50-60 ISIS fighters still hiding inside the prison but not considered a threat anymore.
==
Iranian backed militias in Iraq have thrown rockets and drones at the US embassy in Iraq, without much success.

====
Iranian backed Houthi rebels in Yemen have stepped up missile and drone attacks against UAE and Saudi energy assets.
===

Recent news attention is paid to Putin massing troops on the Ukrainian border. International experts don't expect him to attack during the Olympics and embarrass his 3 way odd man out ally (China) but who knows. This is simple power politics and Putin does not want the Ukraine aligning with the west. They are not a member of NATO but probably want to be.

I find it very interesting to see how Germany is reacting to the impending Ukraine threat. The UK has sent lethal aid to the Ukraine but Germany would not allow the UK to use their airspace to fly over when making the delivery. Germany has offered to send 5000 military helmets to the Ukraine (unclear if this is an insult or odd humor). Better than the blankets that President Obama's administration reportedly sent in 2015 (this is a bit of hyperbole, but the Obama administration did decline to send any lethal aid).

[edit- at the risk of saying something positive about the Biden administration they did at least send "lethal" aid to Ukraine [/edit]

Germany's tacit support of Putin is not exactly in line with other NATO member nations. Germany even denied an export permit when an ally of the Ukraine tried to buy and ship some German weapons to the Ukraine.

Putin's increasing influence over Germany has been predicted with the increasing reliance on Russian energy supplies. The completion of the Nord Stream pipeline, and Germany's shuttering of nuclear power plants will make them even more energy dependent on Russian energy imports.

There are still some 40,000 US troops based in Germany and this is an economic benefit to the German economy. Some US politicians have suggested moving these US troops to Poland, who would appreciate them more, and/or reducing their numbers. If the EU is not concerned about Russia, not sure why it is our responsibility (because of NATO commitments).
===
Don't forget that China is still trying to intimidate Taiwan with military flyovers, but they are unlikely to do anything substantive before the olympics, but that will be over in weeks. They continue to clamp down on dissent in Hong Kong, making it more like the rest of China.
===
N Korea is still saber rattling with missile development.

etc....

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

US special forces carried out another raid in northern Syria taking out a top ISIS fighter (Abu Ibrahim al-Hashimi al-Qurayshi, leader of the Islamic State terrorist group). He wanted to insure that he was taken alive so armed explosives around the top floor of his house. He not only killed himself, he killed his wife and children along with several civilians.


If we knew he was going to do that we could have just dropped a drone on him, but the special forces tried to take him alive.

Kind of like the hydra from Greek mythology you cut off one head and it grows back two. ISIS will keep popping up in lawless regions (now including Afghanistan).

JR