The Middle East Friendship Chart

[cyrano]

I think we've reached the point where all other countries in the region have had enough.
If Israel assumes tactics in southern Gaza the same as it performed the north, I fully expect to see a wider conflict which, I'm afraid, looks even worse for Israel.

That point has been reached a while ago. Israel should be aware there was no unity in Arab nations. That's changing fast. If you combine the power of the rich Arab nations (Saudi Arabia, UAE) with Iran's power (Iran is not an Arab nation, another thing that's not widely understood) you get the recipe for a perfect storm.

I left out Turkey, because they're not an Arab nation either and they have ample problems to deal with atm (flood, earthquakes).

Meanwhile Putin is using the fact that the world isn't paying attention to start a really big offensive in Ukraine and to accelerate exploitation of the Arctic's oil, gas and gold sources. And also promoting the north-east passage to Asian countries who ship a lot of goods. Once the Suez canal gets blocked by war and the Indian ocean is unsafe because of pirates, Russia can play the role of savior of Asian economies. Once Russia becomes the de facto owner of the Arctic, what's the USA going to do? Especially in view of further polarisation like this in Madison, Wisconsin:

 

[CJ]

Isn't it a shame how some parts of the world seem to be in a constant state of turmoil. No letup. Been going on since BC.

• Palestinian Fedayeen insurgency (1950s–1960s) – Palestinian attacks and reprisal operations carried out by the Israel Defense Forces during the 1950s and 1960s. These actions were in response to constant fedayeen incursions during which Arab guerrillas infiltrated from Syria, Egypt, and Jordan into Israel to carry out attacks against Israeli civilians and soldiers. The policy of the reprisal operations was exceptional due to Israel's declared aim of getting a high 'blood cost' among the enemy side which was believed to be necessary in order to deter them from committing future attacks.

JR on top of it , posting on Oct 9 that Hammas will use hospitals and human shields,

 

[groselicain]

Been going on since BC.

Going back to Moses, recognized by all the Semitic religions, a command that literally says to not abduct and/or take hostages (לֹא תִּגְנֹב) exists, and I think most any rational human being, secular or of faith, could see the reason for that now.

Don't you armchair lawyers have other things to argue—like US politics?

 

[groselicain]

I have studied in depth all the Abrahamic religions, including historicity of events, the theology and scriptures of each, and have also read the Greek Septuagent, gnostic gospels, and translation of dead Sea scrolls etc., the precursor to the Christian Bible.
It is indeed a long war and, although there is no evidence for an historical Moses or the exodus from Egypt, the war in this spot was between Canaanites of two tribes.
Neither worshipped the singular G_D of Abrahamic verse which is Yaweh, but evolved from the older G_D of Sumeria 'El'.
This is still evident in the name Isra-el which would be Isra-yahu if they mono-worshipped biblical Yaweh.

P.S. Both Jews and Arabs were the semitic speaking peoples of which, only a small area of Syria still has the semitic language as it was. Aramaic was the language of the hebrews before the Hebrew language itself evolved. Arabic is a semitic language so, technically, it is also correct to call anti-arab sentiment, anti-semitic.

P.P.S. I believe a permanent cease fire could have been achieved when Mohammed asked the Hebrews and the Christians to all worship Yaweh at the same temple in Mecca... Circa CE 692 ish?

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not sure where you got a number of these ideas—and I don't want to wander into an argument here, because I know your heart is definitely in the right place with regard to this horrific mess. You and I have talked years ago about our desire to see the hurting stopped, though I think at the time it was in US politics. In fact, that may have been the last time I wrote anything particularly thoughtful in The Brewery.

I merely brought up the language of the "ten commandments" to show what you yourself said—this isn't the kind of struggle we know anything about in the West. I would also caution you to not make the sorts of mental leaps of faith that evidently brought you to some of these ideas—loan words in the ancient world are no different than in the modern world and shouldn't be immediately viewed as indicative of a larger culture or belief system. The national dish of Britain may as well be Tikka Masala, but few in their right mind would look back in three thousand years and reach the assumption that Britain was a Hindu nation. I would argue that some elements of your timeline are at odds with accepted history.

But I agree wholeheartedly—this business of antisemitism sure has been hijacked, and the amount of unmasked hate for arabs is disgusting.

 

[scott2000]

I come from a personal religious position of being a crusading atheist who will always defend religion. However, if none of us is ever supposed to reach a consensus of agreement on even elementary political positions, when will there ever be peace and real democracy for all.

However, if none of us is ever supposed to reach a consensus of agreement on even elementary political religious positions, when will there ever be peace and real democracy for all?
I know, you said defend, not represent...lol

 

[scott2000]

Don't expect a say in political stuff.

All policy run by atheists ? Agnostics could be the middle class perhaps... wouldn't matter imo..

OK, your church is a non profit and pays no tax.

If it did, which is strange it's allowed not to, " give to Caesar what belongs to him and all that, would your position change and allow those that believe to have a say in what goes on?

Seriously though my friend, none of this at all directed at you

Obviously. My own sister doesn't even "know" me.... that would be too elementary and not a very scientific approach ..lol

will miss chatting shits and giggles with folks

the same. Not like we can walk next door and have some of the insights we can get here....
You should try some Wim Hof breathing. Another member here recommended it and it's insanely good . Very powerful...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Get some help Boogie.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Help with what? Posting stuff on here or my ptsd and epilepsy?
I have much help in the UK for PTSD caused by being in one of America's own concentration camps. I was not supposed to see one of those places, no American-passing, white, middle age person IS supposed to see them. They put the folks that Homeland Security picks up, or were snatched from Iraq or elsewhere there. Lots of things that are not supposed to happen, happen there. I do not think you want me telling you what your government Homeland Security soldiers do to people in those places.

For the record (again), I view the USA Patriot Act and related expansion of Federal authority as an affront to the values of my ancestors and a stain on my country. DHS is part of that. But somehow I doubt this PTSD line.

But thank you for your concern.

It was genuinely offered.

I would be more concerned though about your own lust for arab blood being spilled for the sake of American freedom.

Thank you for not projecting your extreme opinions this way.

 

[Tubetec]

As Ive said ive reduced my consumption of news media to almost zero lately , its too toxic
But its easy to see the polarising effect its having on people , especially smart phone users .
just because you have to overt your gaze from media doesnt mean your turning a blind eye to whats going on .

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Analog Packrat, i assure you that any extrene views I have are the ones I saw in a hell hole.

I'm dubious about the full context of this event, remembering other relevant past "activities."

I am not projecting anything on you other than, you seem to be one of the ones chomping for blood from the beginning of the Palestinian Israeli war. I was simply saying that you were advocate of giving Gaza whatever it takes I remember, you were saying that maybe 40,000 dead 'might' do so, since there are still only about 16,000 dead, you require at least another 24K bodies to feel satisfied.

It really is a shame that you continue to misconstrue what I've said. Context is everything. From earlier in this thread when the discussion turned to valid reprisals:

You said (bold added for clarity):

Will killing all (40,000?) Hamas militant members do it ?

And I responded:

"It might. Would you prefer that they be allowed to continue their activities?"

I am not a proponent of war. Rather I see it as an unfortunate consequence of certain human behavior; actions by Hamas on Oct 7 being one such behavior.

Maybe you don't now in which, my apologies.
I would be looking at why you want that much blood anyway, that is all I am projecting and it came from your own posts about getting justice.

It was a response to your attempt to bait me. How many Hamas militant members should we allow to live in Gaza and the West Bank?

I am done talking to psychopaths about war. They are usually the ones calling for it anyway.
I apologise for not believing your real concern for me and so I sincerely do thank you for that. Sincerely..
I went through a solid 3 days of flashbacks until yesterday, not knowing what triggered my memories of torture and, with a long 3 hour session with my clinical theropist who deals with war vets, we got it. Seeing the stuff on TV reminded me of the Gaza in the desert over in your own country.
I do not blame you for that place one bit, in fact your country was MY country at the time. I was supposed to go to a facility where I could fly to the UK for neurosurgery within a week. I ended up there because of an honest mistake on the part of ICE I think, based on WHAT, I'm not sure. Yhe only thing which qualified as me being an enemy of the state was a picture from 2003 with me at a peaceful anti Iraq war march in San Fransisco. So maybe that qualified in 2011.

I'm pretty sure there's more to the story. I know plenty of people who attended those anti-war rallies, including immigrants, and none have been detained when traveling internationally.

I spent 5 months there instead of being allowed to the UK surgery. Now, I am glad I went, I have now seen and will never not see.
A whole lot of Habeous Corpus-Ness stuff happened and me, I had about as many legal and human rights on American soil during those 5 months as any Palestinian does now in Gaza.

Too much innuendo.

Of course, no bombs, but plenty of very heavy firepower on display, AK 47's I think although I do not know my guns.

The US military and government do not employ Soviet arms (except in rare covert ops), and certainly not 75 year old weapon designs.

Anyway once on British soil which had never taken away my rights as a citizen there too, all my human and legal rights have been restored so, all good now.

Interesting take on citizenship. Your oath of citizenship here in the US included a statement that you renounce any fealty to other nations/leaders. Dual citizenship goes against that, IMO, though many immigrants here are allowed it. And your right to free speech is much less protected in the UK than in the US, though many here are pushing to weaken it to the same or lower standard.

Take care yourself, I mean it too.

Oh, I am.

 

[groselicain]

My friend Groselicain, I believe we are in compleye agreement in things regarding everything that is horrific and detrimental towards humanity in this war.

I do think that any error is on my part in what looks now to me, to be a somewhat flippant reply on my part.
It was made on the back end of a late lunch within a 36 hour work shift and was intended as leaps of thought while reflecting on my now going on 5 years hiatus from work on a post doctoral thesis of thought.

Please accept my apology if I came across as anything other than perhaps a little epileptic in thought, my main enduring fault has always been in communicating what was in my head at a particular moment.

Profoundly expressed Deus Wobescum to all and may G_D himself be with us all as brothers in arms.

Brother, you don't owe me any explanation at all. I say this for all to see, because I believe several of us feel this exact same way—regardless of any mental or behavioral health issues, I know that you have a kind heart that desires peace far more than war, and life far more than death. This whole mess is damaging to the entirety of the world, and makes fools of us all at some point.

I've said it before, but I believe it bears repeating. I'm so thankful for you all!

 

[cyrano]

Once again, kudo's to the Canadians. A recent female escapee from Saudi-Arabia was granted asylum in canada and saved from incarceration, torture and slow death in her country.

And "shame on you" to the Australian govt for bowing to the wishes of rich influential Saudi-Arabians, revoking the young woman's visa and refusing asylum.

A bit of background:

 

[AnalogPackrat]

You are up to date and we agree up to the Patriot Act. But you do not seem to be up to date as far as Homeland Security and ICE from Obama 2008 on when I was in the system. There is a lot I had no rights for, merely for not being an American born person. As immigrant if you will.

I helped my wife immigrate here in 2013. I am very familiar with ICE and DHS and how the process changed from the time before DHS. My ex was an immigrant as a child and I have many friends who immigrated pre-DHS.

I will not debate that which you have no experience. Do you have experience of being a subject of ICE? No.
Beyond this Please!

Having had to submit large volumes of personal information to ICE as part of my wife's immigration and having been interviewed twice during the process (plus more upon entry at SFO), yes.

On the insinuations against me. I categorically maintain that whatever my sins or crimes if you will, I do not believe you are up to date on my character as a whole, as a good person in this world. Not even considering that I was on of the first members of this forum. I joined on the very first day in 2003. I have done more good on this forum, than bad. I am someone who has done more good in this world than bad. In my opinion. And in the opinion of some other people too. If you disagree, then I am sorry, but your opinion of me then would matter less to me than the canabis ash I just flicked into my ashtray.
My God! I have broken the law all over the world as a consumer of cannabis before it became legal. I should be summarily executed.
Immediately!!
Sorry dude(s) but seriously? I do not think you know me at all.
So chill out dude(s)

I'm fine, thanks. Again, I'm not a fan of big government, unaccountable bureaucracy, secret foreign entanglements and influence schemes, etc. I am a proponent of the rule of law, personal responsibilty, and accountability. That's all I'm going to say.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

@Winston OBoogie
I knew you better inspired than using the F word.
Your technical contributions were so valuable I miss them, was wondering if you were still alive, and now I find you've entrapped yourself in these impossibly entrenched discussions that lead nowhere.
I have my own opinions about what happens in Gaza but will not express them in teh sewer that the Brewery is too often.
Please come back to your senses, enlighten us with your technical savvy, and forget about this.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It is in our forum rules that we keep our discussions civil. Let's avoid all the personal back and forth that seems to strain some members ability to remain civil.
==
This is an emotionally charged topic, but some can't avoid making it about themselves. Less of that please.
==
I do not want to lock this topic as requested in the admin report because I feel it is an important topic.

We need to learn how to communicate better or this next 11 months will get pretty bumpy from all the sh__ hitting the fan.

Remember, it's nice to be nice.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am not worried but please stop sharing so much.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Being an advocate of actual free speech, I have not requested that any thread be locked or edited. Carry on.

 

[cyrano]

Well, meanwhile the beast is still at it:



Most of Israel's sensational stories about oct. 7 have been debunked by now. Five Palestinian premature babies died and have been rotting in the hospital Israel evacuated, despite promesses of sending ambulances...

The Jews have suffered endlessly in Europe. They were far better off under Muslim Arab leadership:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule
Yet they hate Arabs more than Europeans. Go figure. Religion makes people blind, deaf and mute, I guess. The most vilified nation in the Middle East, Iran, still harbors around 27.000 Jews. And that despite Israel's efforts to import all jews from around the globe. Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism are officially recognized and protected, and have reserved seats in the Iranian parliament. Again, go figure...

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I don't care too much about opinions. Everyone has the right to be wrong. It's just that opinions can be expressed without using dirty words. It makes them more pertinent.

 

[CJ]

Winston, sorry for the OT,
If you had to make a choice between the LA2a and the 1176 for vocals, which would you choose? Thanks! cj