The Middle East Friendship Chart

[cyrano]

Right now Israel doesn't want to make any more waves than neccesary. I don't think it would help the hostage negotiations.

They're not very good at it, seemingly. They arrested two representative of the ISM (International Solidarity Movement), who were present as observers while some extremist settlers bulldozered Palestinian homes near the mountain Hebron.

The accusation is "support for Hamas". Obviously, if you're recording what extremist zionist settlers are allowed to do (the IDF was watching while the homes were bulldozered), you're a pita to the fascists.

Israel would like very much for the world to not notice they are committing genocide in every meaning of the word. Observers not wanted.

 

[cyrano]

It also seems Americans are shitting their pants. The separate law about anti-semitism (and not rascism in general) is turning a lot of the people who 'd like to speak out mute. Of course, supporters of Israel, like the one from the Obama administration who proclaimed Israel can't kill enough Palestinian children are welcomed. Unfortunately, these fascists are dumb enough not to realise immigrants who are trying to make a buck by selling hotdogs on the street might just be recording their rascist mantra:

 

[L´Andratté]

Disgusting.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Ironic to accuse Israel of genocide but hyperbolic political language has degraded the real meanings to be meaningless.

If you want to call out genocide, how about the Uyghurs in China? For even more irony the Uyghurs are muslims.

JR

 

[cyrano]

Ironic to accuse Israel of genocide but hyperbolic political language has degraded the real meanings to be meaningless.

If you want to call out genocide, how about the Uyghurs in China? For even more irony the Uyghurs are muslims.

JR

You need to go a long way to call that genocide. Forced labor, forced abortions, incarceration, rape, re-education... but still not genocide.

They're also called terrorists. And effectively, they have bombed a few things. That's a real parallel.

 

[JohnRoberts]

not my characterization...

Ongoing persecution of ethnic and religious minorities in northwestern China under Xi Jinping's administration
The Chinese government has committed a series of ongoing human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang that is often characterized as genocide. Beginning in 2014, the Chinese government, under the administration of Chinese Communist Party General Secretary Xi Jinping, incarcerated more than an estimated one million Turkic Muslims without any legal process in internment camps.

[edit- while far from a definitive resource I just searched for all genocides, a pretty long list. They included uyghurs, Nazi, and even California indians, but no Palestinian genocide. /edit] List of genocides - Wikipedia

JR

 

[Script]

That is serious price deflation since Hamas last traded one Israeli soldier captive for 1,000 Palestinian prisoners, years ago. Maybe they don't have any more (live) Israeli

It is difficult to trade captives, report on their health status, and allow Red Cross to visit captives who are no longer alive.

Chances that captives survived were rather slim from the start given the nature and extent of the attacks on Oct 7 (Hamas fighters storming in, and I hate to say it, followed by a bunch of civilians joining the killing spree) . But we'll know soon, I guess.

 

[cyrano]

This is an explanation as to what is regarded as genocide:

https://ccrjustice.org/sites/defaul...term genocide in Israel Palestine Context.pdf
I'll admit that the Uyghurs are undergoing genocide too. It seems every time I take a look at the situation it has become worse. Much worse.

If you search for "Palestinian genocide" you'll find numerous entities who consider it as genocide, or sometimes "Ethnical cleansing".

 

[Script]

But can't really call it that either cos there were no Jews living in Gaza since settlers there were forcefully extracted by Israel when Gaza was becoming autonomously governed.

 

[cyrano]

Settlers have always been there. The few that were extracted (to make it seem like Israel was keeping it's word) were just that: a few.

The bulldozering of Palestinian homes on the westbank is what's going on now. Israel never really stopped the zionist settlers. At certain moments they were told to wait. That's all. None of them were ever jailed for longer than a few days, even if they just killed an entire Palestinian family.

That doesn't mean there are no jews who are living peacefully between the Palestinians, but those are a small minority. And Palestinians living peacefully in Israel are second rate citizens. They can't go where they want, since there are checkpoints everywhere. Even Palestinian ambulances are made to wait for an hour or so before they can cross the checkpoint. Palestinians (and Arabs in general) can't use some streets, while jews can go where they want. There are, (or were before the latest conflict) jews who went into Gaza to help Palestinians.

After the Arab-Israeli war of 1948, 85% of Palestinians fled Israel. According to the Zionists, this was because the Arabs believed in an Arab victory. Most historians however, note that they were driven from their homes either by the Israeli army, or by the terrorist settler movement.

Nothing changed since 1948. Zionist settlers still drive Palestinians from their homes and land today. They use paper to do so. The paper states that they own that land, but that's just because Palestinians were unable to register their ownership, due to ignorance, or not being allowed into Israel for some reason. That reason can be quite absurd: they can lose their pass because a nephew threw stones at IDF soldiers. Or even just for protesting loudly. Any reason is good enough.

 

[cyrano]

This from 2021. I'm starting to admire the Irish...

 

[Script]

Settlers have always been there

You are talking about the Gaza Strip, right?
There were no Jewish settlers in the Gaza Strip after 2005 and the implementation of the Disengagement Plan under Ariel Sharon.

Most Jewish settlers in Gaza were compensated to leave and went, others didn't want to leave and barb-wired their houses against Israeli forces but were eventually evicted. This left the entire Gaza Strip to Palestinians for autonomous self-governance.

And sorry to say, but integrated Arabs living in Israel are NOT second-class citizens. That again is nonsense.

 

[cyrano]

I was talking about Gaza, yes, but also the West bank. See what's brewing:

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/202...eriously/0000018b-ab6a-d5aa-a19f-affa8b130000

At the end of the war, there may already be a compromise between those Israelis who demand full expulsion of Palestinians and Jewish settlements throughout the Gaza Strip

See? Full expulsion. Endlösung?

And that's in Haaretz. A supposedly left-wing newspaper.

The Arabs in Israel (over 20% of the population) have the same rights as the rest of the population, except for those in East Jerusalem. Those aren't Israeli citizens, they are "permanent residents". Tourists in their own country. They can be expelled at any moment, if someone feels like they have a claim on their property, or feels like they support Hamas, or any other terrorist organisation.

In general, Arabs living in Israel don't speak about politics, the war, or any other sensitive matter. Because chances are, some Zionist extremist might hear it and run to the police. Even for those who hold an Israeli passport, that means trouble. Maybe not from the police, but certainly from the zionist terrorists, who kill Arabs on a daily basis and all too often get away with it under the pretense of "self defense" or "lack of evidence.

If, OTOH, an Israeli of Jewish background gets harassed, wounded, or killed by an Arab, you can be damned sure the police will go to the extreme of what's allowed and in rare cases even beyond that.

Arabs in Israel all live in older, less comfortable houses, all are poorer (a lot of them are unemployed, over 40% for 18-24 year olds) and make lower wages. Their level of education is lower, their health is worse.

Arab citizens of Israel can't open a business on some streets. Around a synagog, fi. And that's a wide zone. If OTOH, a jew decides to open shop next to the mosque, chances are they will get a permit easily, especially in East Jerusalem, as "permanent residents" can't complain.

Then there are things like the 2018 Nation-State Law, which declares only Jews have a right to self-determination.

It's not fun to grow up constantly looking over your shoulder. Even Reuters agrees:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...sidelines-raging-democracy-battle-2023-07-26/
And it's also not better in the West Bank. Settlers get guns, Arabs get harassed and killed:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...-attacks-fuel-fire-gaza-war-rages-2023-11-02/
You might not call that "second-class citizens", but what are they, then? Maybe you're right. Maybe we'd better call them "eternal victims".

 

[JohnRoberts]

The Karl Marx is strong in this one...

Oppressors-oppressed distinction​

Oppressors–oppressed distinction or dominant–dominated opposition is a political concept. One of the first theorists to use it was Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, who wrote in his 1802 The German Constitution: "The Catholics had been in the position of oppressors, and the Protestants of the oppressed." Karl Marx made the concept very influential, and it is often considered a fundamental element of Marxist analysis. Some have judged it simplistic.

JR

 

[Script]

The Karl Marx is strong in this one...

I get a feeling it's much more than that. Similar 'techniques' across posts.

 

[cyrano]

Yep. Usual fascist techniques. Shoot the messenger, don't even think about the message. You know, thinking is really dangerous. It might just upset your programming. Goebbels understood that very well.

 

[cyrano]

Freedom of speech, Israeli style:

 

[cyrano]

Fascists are fascists. Lots of victims of the Oct. 7 attack weren't killed by Hamas, buy by the IDF. The Hannibal directive that was abandoned in 2016 tells IDF to shoot or otherwise destroy Israelis captured by the enemy, to avoid them being used at hostages.

 

[JohnRoberts]

It might be time to start thinking about the end game. Looking at the post WWII history in Germany may be instructive. Defeating Hitler's army was not enough to end naziism, there was still public support in Germany that needed to be reversed.

Israel can easily defeat the Hamas military, but changing the public support among the Gaza population for Hamas will be a much heavier lift.

This will be another one for the history books.

JR

PS: The PR front of the war is still going strong.

 

[cyrano]

Even Piers Morgan has seen the light. Mind you, he seems to be regretting his loyal support for Israel because of the number of views his videos are getting. So he's changing sides to the more popular one?