New CK12 capsule

[ElSmurf]

Just received images of Chandler TG limited with it's glorious RK12 capsule.

This is what i'm talking about. Translated from German.

"The built-in microphone capsule is edge-terminated, thus based on AKG's CK-12 design. As for the manufacturer and exact specifications, that information is also kept secret. "

And 10$ worth of components. Very odd...

 

[Nen'O]

This is a $2000 mic using a $15 capsule. Telefunken has also been doing this for a few years now, also using similarly misleading marketing. I'm all for using an affordable capsule if you're willing to put the work in to make it sound good (like building the right circuit for a K67), but don't slap a name on an otherwise cheaply made mic and charge 5-10x what it should cost because a high end company is selling it. If I want to pay that much for a mic with an edge terminated capsule that isn't accurate to the AKG designs I'll get a Neumann TLM 107.

Now in a $200-300 mic, I would love that style of capsule, though I'd hope for the 797 version specifically.

I was just sharing my experience with cheap eBay capsule.

Corkage fee businesses model in music gear industry is nothing new.
You can take your favourite Chilean bottle of wine you paid 20€ in fancy restaurant and pay extra 200€ just for waiter to open it so you can consume it with your dinner.
Same thing with mics, many companies take advantage of cheap manufacturing in China to increase revenue without compromising quality.

Speaking of mass manufacturing of high quality edge terminated capsule I’m surprised that there is a little talk about Audio Technica capsules. Those sound great and matching seems to be identical no mater how many serial no. apart.

 

[Андрій Чубака]

This china market also not working very good. Often they sale some defective capsules. For exmpale here Post in thread 'Saddles for bm800 for 34 and 25mm capsules for 3d printing. Done models.' Saddles for bm800 for 34 and 25mm capsules for 3d printing. Done models. cheap capsule from ali. And on back side film is placed not correct. I know it is don't create any big difference in this case and i not to so worry about it. But i read some feedback from other buyer on ali about same capsule and he got same model of capsule with this problem on front side. So most like his capsule is wasted for using in correct way.

For example saddles for capsules Chinese already sale with about 10euro price on ali and i can't find cheaper. But this just piece of cheap plastic with regular price around 0,1$ or even more cheap. But Chinese think they can do money on it and just sales it with this high price. Like for diy projects etc. Maybe they just not understand about people who working with diy not always have a lot of money.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

George any mic builder who ever had a problem with my capsule and didn't contact me is an idiot. I address ANY problem ANY time with ANY of my capsules. Yes at one point Oliver Achut (who I worked with) convinced me to find a solution for shorting of the backplates. I made a capsule with a plastic delay network. It worked brilliantly and I have many emails from Oliver telling me what a great innovation it was. It didn't last. The plastic brought it's own problems. At my own expense I bought back every capsule ( there are still 3 or 4 in the world I haven't managed to get back but I would gladly exchange them free of charge) and went back to a brass delay network. I am not coy, I am proud of myself for eating the loss and doing the right thing. I will add that was how many years ago? Many, many. Another time a mic builder bought 4 of my capsules and then complained that they were collapsing. I gave him his money back only to find when I received the capsule they were completly destroyed. I have many of these horror stories. That is just business.

I know the artist you mean. He has never, ever bought from me or contacted me about my capsule. I wish he had. I would have GLADLY addressed this. That was also 10 years ago. Instead some people just like posting on GS about such stuff.

I do not write press for any microphones. I build capsules. I have EVERY time a manufacturer claimed I made an exact clone told them to change their text. That is all I can do.

If you don't like my capsule George I am not forcing you to buy it. You are not alone but many do like it

I would ask again show me where I lie and show me someone who does as AKG did. You cannot.

On this forum alone so many times I have replaced a capsule for free because a builder slipped with a screwdriver. A member who bought my capsule 11 years ago and left it in a drawer recently tried the capsule and wasn't happy. He sent the capsule to me and I replaced it with a new one free of charge. I cannot remember how many times I have adjusted a capsule brighter or darker for a customer gladly and free of charge simply so they could have a mic that followed their tastes.

George this just sounds like a situation where a hater's gonna hate

Tim, you just don’t fully “get it” and I attribute it as much to my own failure to communicate as anything else.

Here’s an imperfect analogy. A guitar neck can use a scarf joint to create the headstock. It makes it easier and cheaper to manufacture, to the point that manufacturers in China, Korea, Indonesia, etc, use the technique in their “clones” of more famous guitars. A guitar can work fine with a scarf joint.

It is still considered premium to not use a scarf joint.

I think I initially suggested here that with the Chinese manufacturer using your simplification, that moving to a more historically accurate production is a way you could outdo them. I write that because I authentically think it is true, if their production ever does challenge your sales. You know your business and if that makes sense or not.

I do understand that from your perspective you could look at your decision to glue the pieces as a superior method. That’s somewhat subjective. On the other hand, whether a capsule clones a given parameter of the original or not is objective.

At this point I am at peace if you want to denigrate my valuing the original item more than a clone, or my outlook that skipping manufacture steps makes something inherently less valuable or accurate. I think it’s a pretty normal view. I think your view is pretty normal for a cloner. No point in talking in circles.

 

[metalockpick]

Ok, boys...You can stop the pissing contest now

 

[Tim Campbell]

I think we have made our points and so I am taking down my posts not because I mind anything that has been said but more it is a drain on the members and topic. I don't mind these discussions I take everything that has been said seriously

I am currently in Germany on my way to Berlin to talk about... capsules!

 

[ubxf]

From all these exchanges i understand that there are some fine construction details that differ in the CT12 and a vintage CK12.
In the case of a CK12 repair or revoicing does the capsule becomes a CT12 ?

 

[Tim Campbell]

From all these exchanges i understand that there are some fine construction details that differ in the CT12 and a vintage CK12.
In the case of a CK12 repair or revoicing does the capsule becomes a CT12 ?

No. Not at all. I am very particular about sticking exactly to AKG's parameters when I repair capsules and also with my own.
If it is possible I measure every capsule before I touch it and when I finish I make sure it measures exactly the same.
So there is no misunderstanding the ONLY difference between my CT12 and AKG's is that I do not thread the inserts to the chamber which has never been a secret and as George pointed out I glue the acrylic to the brass which almost all other manufacturers do. That's it.

 

[kingkorg]

My experience with Tim's capsule.

In Tim's defense: This is the only capsule i have ever had that allows me to just cut the unusable low end on vocals (generally something i always do), put a compressor on it and that's it. No de-esser, no eq needed. Finished, polished vocal sound. Sits right in the mix. End of story. It has the detailed top end, HI-Fi sound C12 is famous for. Night and day difference compared to u47 or u87 sound.

It also has huge low end which fits ideally vintage tube circuits with lower value hiZ resistors and lower value coupling caps, which all limit the low end response.

In George's defense: Many have described darker sounding, more linear CK12, the ones found in early c414. We have heard story about AKG trying to make them flatter. We have seen documentation from AKG that shows very moderate HF boost. Tim's capsule is not one of these.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Ok, boys...You can stop the pissing contest now

Oh so now it’s a pissing contest is it?

Before I ever posted in the thread I got invited by private message to come witness “Tim having a meltdown” over these new capsules. Yeah, there is some schadenfreude involved, from being previously berated by Tim over my putting some value on this machining aspect of the construction, or on distinction between CK12 subtypes. Now the race to the bottom mentality backfires and leads the way to someone else constructing this capsule in China.

It’s anyone’s prerogative to call names or whine when they don’t like where a discussion goes. From my perspective there is no pissing contest involved. I think Tim is probably better positioned than most - possibly anyone - to make exceedingly accurate duplicates of specific subtypes of CK12 capsules.

When I came to the thread and read what had been written, jokes of starting a band or doing something else…I’m just saying that there is another route to go, even deeper into accuracy. That is certainly a trend that other companies that choose to reproduce prized vintage items have taken at times. I guess that’s probably how it will go with some maker now that there is more competition, whoever goes that route.

 

[metalockpick]

Oh so now it’s a pissing contest is it?

Before I ever posted in the thread I got invited by private message to come witness “Tim having a meltdown” over these new capsules. Yeah, there is some schadenfreude involved, from being previously berated by Tim over my putting some value on this machining aspect of the construction, or on distinction between CK12 subtypes. Now the race to the bottom mentality backfires and leads the way to someone else constructing this capsule in China.

It’s anyone’s prerogative to call names or whine when they don’t like where a discussion goes. From my perspective there is no pissing contest involved. I think Tim is probably better positioned than most - possibly anyone - to make exceedingly accurate duplicates of specific subtypes of CK12 capsules.

When I came to the thread and read what had been written, jokes of starting a band or doing something else…I’m just saying that there is another route to go, even deeper into accuracy. That is certainly a trend that other companies that choose to reproduce prized vintage items have taken at times. I guess that’s probably how it will go with some maker now that there is more competition, whoever goes that route.

Geo;

Find something in life that makes you happy, and do that.

MLP

 

[paulcheeba]

Well I hope the samples turn up soon so we can hear how close to a real CK12 they sound. It would be disappointing if they have cloned a clone. I’ve ordered 4 pairs including a pair of old 414’s. So it’s going to be interesting.
The Chinese don’t fake fake watches so I’d be surprised if they have taken an approximation as their template.

 

[ccaudle]

so we can hear how close to a real CK12 they sound

I think a few people may have missed this earlier point:

even the same models of capsules from different C12s sounded pretty different.

Do you know that AKG made 16 changes to the ck12 trying to make it flat. I have all 16 sets of blueprints!

I don't think "real CK12" means one single thing, so there is no guarantee that two "real CK12" capsules would sound exactly alike, much less a new recreation and any particular vintage CK12 capsule.

 

[paulcheeba]

I think a few people may have missed this earlier point:





I don't think "real CK12" means one single thing, so there is no guarantee that two "real CK12" capsules would sound exactly alike, much less a new recreation and any particular vintage CK12 capsule.

How many times have people said “no 2 “insert here” sound alike.”
Only to find out the original’s share one thing in common - quality. I haven’t heard a CK12 clone yet that sounds like any era of the real thing.
I’d say the Chinese stand just as good chance as long as they have cloned an original version of some sort.

 

[ubxf]

No. Not at all. I am very particular about sticking exactly to AKG's parameters when I repair capsules and also with my own.
If it is possible I measure every capsule before I touch it and when I finish I make sure it measures exactly the same.
So there is no misunderstanding the ONLY difference between my CT12 and AKG's is that I do not thread the inserts to the chamber and as George pointed out I glue the acrylic to the brass. That's it.

Thank you for the clarification. Is it still possible to send you an AKG capsule for repair or are you still at full capacity with your own production ?

 

[Tim Campbell]

Thank you for the clarification. Is it still possible to send you an AKG capsule for repair or are you still at full capacity with your own production ?

At least for the time being I am way too busy but with the latest developments who knows .

Really I am not upset by any of this discussion or this capsule. I am not even near having a meltdown. Good honest exchange never hurts anyone. Text does not convey my humor in all this. If someone gets pleasure from thinking I am suffering and at the same time I am not in reality suffering we both win! I don't believe I called anyone names and I am so far from whining

I thought we had ended this long discussion on a very good point and I don't think that it is fair to other members to keep dragging it out.

 

[ubxf]

At least for the time being I am way too busy but with the latest developments who knows .

Really I am not upset by any of this discussion or this capsule. I am not even near having a meltdown. Good honest exchange never hurts anyone. Text does not convey my humor in all this. If someone gets pleasure from thinking I am suffering and at the same time I am not in reality suffering we both win! I don't believe I called anyone names and I am so far from whining

I thought we had ended this long discussion on a very good point and I don't think that it is fair to other members to keep dragging it out.

Thank you i was just hoping to have you grace one of my old AKG with your expert care before you decide to hang up the gloves

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

How many times have people said “no 2 “insert here” sound alike.”
Only to find out the original’s share one thing in common - quality. I haven’t heard a CK12 clone yet that sounds like any era of the real thing.
I’d say the Chinese stand just as good chance as long as they have cloned an original version of some sort.

I can't imagine anyone has a C414 or C12 that's even remotely close to perfect condition so I think that's a moot point, and with how early AKG started replacing them with the teflon ones I doubt you can even find high quality raw recordings of the original brass capsules.

 

[paulcheeba]

I can't imagine anyone has a C414 or C12 that's even remotely close to perfect condition so I think that's a moot point, and with how early AKG started replacing them with the teflon ones I doubt you can even find high quality raw recordings of the original brass capsules.

Did you not see my photo earlier in the thread. Do you not know about the AKG staff etc. took all the NOS capsules and materials from the old Austrian AKG factory? This place is a funny bubble.

 

[Nen'O]

Well I hope the samples turn up soon so we can hear how close to a real CK12 they sound. It would be disappointing if they have cloned a clone. I’ve ordered 4 pairs including a pair of old 414’s. So it’s going to be interesting.
The Chinese don’t fake fake watches so I’d be surprised if they have taken an approximation as their template.

Hi,
Do you mind sharing the price you paid for capsules ?

Cheers