New CK12 capsule

[OPR]

Oh yeah we all knew it was coming sooner or later...
And like you say there's still more to it than mechanical construction! it's not like you can build it without spending time with it adjusting and listening to and adjusting each an every one... I too have plenty of other work fortunately.

And yes I do play guitar!
What time's band rehearsal? I'll book the plane tickets and see you in 24 hours! lol!

 

[Nen'O]

Chinese clone of Thiersch M7 turned out to be OK budget option for nice capsule. Pricing is reasonable, too.
Sooner or later it had to happen with C12 capsule, too.
Curious to see what will this clone sound like.

 

[paulcheeba]

Chinese clone of Thiersch M7 turned out to be OK budget option for nice capsule. Pricing is reasonable, too.
Sooner or later it had to happen with C12 capsule, too.
Curious to see what will this clone sound like.

Andreas Stenzel uses the 3U M7 in vintage Neumanns when doing repairs. Thiersch was a year wait.

 

[Tim Campbell]

Try reselling a vintage Neumann with a chinese capsule and see the value drop. Sell one without mentioning it and hope you don't get sued.

 

[ZHOUJUN]

$100 CK12 is always something to look forward to, correct AKG clone or not, I guess I can only judge after using it, actually I was looking forward to the 3U CK12 because their M7 is so awesome, my best choice should be Tim , just difficult to get his CT12, although Tim is very helpful, but his CT12 is very difficult to wait, he is too busy.

 

[Tim Campbell]

Yes. As I said in another post I am sorry for that too.

 

[oscarhuang]

The meaning of the whole post is 1: China ck12 is too cheap to hurt my interests 2: China ck12 plagiarized 3: China ck12 = the sound quality is very bad 4: China ck12 broke the monopoly

 

[Tim Campbell]

we don't know any of those answers yet. There has never been a monopoly. We listed 7 companies that make this capsule which are all copies of AKG.
I think that there has been a bit of misperception about this being about this new capsule appropriating someone else's work.
Everyone including myself has copied AKG's work
My reason for keeping my work out of china is that I live in one of the most expensive countries in the world. It costs me a fortune to make my capsule. I depend on revenue from my capsule to earn a living. I also believe my capsule caters to a particular clientele

China is a huge, well oiled machine waiting to find new products to manufacture at huge quantity and very low prices. 100 USD for this capsule compared to around 400 USD for the rest of ours.

I would be an idiot and a bad businessman if I did anything to create a competitor that could outproduce me at a fraction of my cost.
No one has said this capsule sounds bad. We don't know what it sounds like. We do know that all the current CK12's produced by these 7 companies sound different. We are interested to hear how different this one sounds

 

[oscarhuang]

I mean not only technology monopoly but also price monopoly. When you mention ck12, most people will think of Tim including me. DIYers all over the world know that Tim makes a very good ck12, but how many people can directly buy Tim's ck12? Or wait an extremely long time. I believe it is impossible for us to buy a ck12 for $100 because it needs to start at 50 capsules. But if they use modern high-precision cnc processing machines, I think Chinese ck12 is still worth looking forward to. At least I was very surprised to use the M7 made in China. I have previously purchased over 20 thiresch M7's.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

When you buy my capsule you are buying a CT12, my capsule. The best chambered type capsule I can build. If you want a CK12 capsule by your definition the only option is to buy an original AKG.

The only 3 companies that have ever worked directly with AKG in bringing their own version of this capsule to market have been Haun, Telefunken and myself. Karl Peschel and Norbert Sobel of AKG helped me immensely on my capsule and gave me their blessing.

Yes. I point friends and acquaintances to buy real CK12 capsules when it has come up in conversation.

How much time/cost increase do you think it would be to make an exacting physical clone of a CK12? That may be an area to investigate with the increased competition.

I think that some manufacturers choosing the route of not fully duplicating the capsule and instead relying on chintzy corner cutting techniques, leaves a gap for whoever else wants to actually replicate the product to the fullest extent.

 

[Tim Campbell]

Many manufacturers do skip one very important feature because they simply never worked with AKG and so don't understand it's function

 

[ElSmurf]

I decided to go a different route entirely with my CK12 design. I took a diagram of the assembled capsule, erased the part lines and drew new ones. It assembles into electrically and acoustically the exact same capsule, but the parts are completely different. Some of these other designs, I feel like they try to preserve certain aspects of the design but end up changing important things in order to preserve those aspects, like moving or removing metal etc. Better to abandon the assembly process completely but make sure everything is in the right place and out of the right material

Very interested to see and hear what you come up with.

 

[soliloqueen]

Originally I purposely made my capsule differently out of respect for my friends at AKG. I did not want anyone to mistake my work for theirs.

My newer k87 builds look dangerously close to the originals. I had to decide several places to break, like the style of center termination, to avoid issues like this.

 

[paulcheeba]

We need French perfection and Chinese manufacturing amounts.

 

[JPO]

I just

I wanted to make clear that it is possible to get the same result from replicas, as long as they are based on the capsule you are comparing them to. Just so DIYers are clear there is nothing mystical, or unobtainable in the originals. I hope you are not leaving because of me, my remark was not intended as an attack towards you, or your oppinion.

Do you know that AKG made 16 changes to the ck12 trying to make it flat. I have all 16 sets of blueprints!

 

[kingkorg]

Do you know that AKG made 16 changes to the ck12 trying to make it flat. I have all 16 sets of blueprints!

This is amazing, didn't know that. But this is most definitely not the first capsule engineers tried to make flat.

I did though receive a measurement from a friend of a ck12 made by one of the guys mentioned here, it was basically flat with some roll-off above 15k. I thought that was wrong way to tune a CK12, but now i guess it was based on that type of CK12 capsule.

Shure engineer who designed all the unidyne cartridges went crazy trying to make sm57 flat. Never achieved the goal, closest he got was Sm7 using the help of built in passive filter.

Neumann's goal with both m7, k47 and the whole u87 was to make them as flat as possible.

There was also different standard for FR spl deviation, so i guess couple of db werent a big deal. Also audible range was often specified up to sometimes 10k, and in other cases went up to 15k.

 

[OPR]

Many manufacturers do skip one very important feature because they simply never worked with AKG and so don't understand it's function

Indeed they do!
Now stop giving away clues!

 

[Tim Campbell]

hahahahah

 

[soliloqueen]

i noticed something really basic in the k67 that was causing most of the clones i could find to not sound right. seems like most people just trusted someone else about it

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Well from an engineering/technical standpoint I can't see that any of the manufacturers we are discussing cut corners or do anything "chintzy". We are building a microphone capsule not a museum piece. All of the critical dimensions and materials that determine the frequency response of an AKG CK12 capsule are replicated in all our work.

I think that skipping the full duplication of the capsule, replacing a screw joint with glue, is chintzy. It also paves the way for cheaper “duplication” we are all now discussing.

I’m not saying it necessarily results in the end product sounding different, but I’m also not going to say it can’t.

You seem to worry about threads, screw sizes, etc. that have nothing to do with the actual working of the capsule. There is of course a place for museum pieces.

It’s not worry. It’s just an attempt to accurately describe the product.

Originally I purposely made my capsule differently out of respect for my friends at AKG. I did not want anyone to mistake my work for theirs. I only changed to the current looks of my capsule when they were sold and moved to Hungary.

Earlier you cited Dallas Upton as one of the few actually making an exact copy and he truly is but only of one particular version of the many AKG themselves made.

Yes. I feel that capsule makers presenting their product as accurate clones when they are not, as well as glossing over the different versions of CK12, has led to many customers who have been a bit hoodwinked or at the very least confused by the marketing jargon.

I just spoke with Dallas last night for almost 2 hours. I can garrantee you that he does not feel that I make a lesser capsule because I do not thread my internal chamber. AKG only threaded that piece because that was the technology they had at the time for making an internal chamber and it allowed them to clear debris from the chamber.

I wouldn’t project on to other people what their thinking is or isn’t.

Many manufacturers do skip one very important feature because they simply never worked with AKG and so don't understand it's function

I would be an idiot and a bad businessman if I did anything to create a competitor that could outproduce me at a fraction of my cost.
No one has said this capsule sounds bad. We don't know what it sounds like. We do know that all the current CK12's produced by these 7 companies sound different. We are interested to hear how different this one sounds.

Yet here we are! You *have* created a competitor by producing a cheaper version of CK12.