New CK12 capsule

[Tim Campbell]

I have replaced some styroflex membranes from early AKG capsules a long time ago. It is similar in some ways to PVC and slightly thicker than 6 micron ( 9 micron?). It did not sound particularily good, dull and lifeless, but it was only used on shallow resonator capsules which do not sound as good as later capsules.

 

[Whoops]

Hello friends,
it's great to be able to read this thread with so many knowledgeable people from you guys.

Somehow I was never deep into the CK12, so I don't it well.
I've used in the past mics with AKG CK12 capsules installed but somehow I think I was unlucky with the mic specimens I got.
First I used was a AKG C12A (the one that is shaped like a 414) , the mic didn't had service for a long time, it sounded broken, it was probably broken and in urgency need of maintenance.
Then I used the AKG C12 and The Elam 251, but just in 1 vocal session each, it was quick, so I didn't had enough time to get familiar with the mics.
I also own a new/modern AKG 414 XLII, the mic is marketed as having CK12 capsule installed, but although it sounds better than the C414 XLS model (the one with standard capsule) that I also own none of the 2 mics sound that good to me, I really don't like the sound of this newer 414 reincarnations.

Saying this I think I never got familiar and sure to what was exactly the characteristic of a CK12 capsule.

For the MK47 I know it's voicing has a Mids bump, at around 2khz to 4khz, but it doesn't have a significant bump in the sibilance region and has a smooth high end roll off.
Then the K87, has an huge bump in the sibilance region at around 10khz, that it's then attenuated with corrective EQ in an U87 and U67.

What about the CK12?
Could you guys please describe on average whats the voicing and characteristics of a CK12 capsule compared to these other 2?

Thank you so much for sharing your experience

 

[kingkorg]

Hello friends,
it's great to be able to read this thread with so many knowledgeable people from you guys.

Somehow I was never deep into the CK12, so I don't it well.
I've used in the past mics with AKG CK12 capsules installed but somehow I think I was unlucky with the mic specimens I got.
First I used was a AKG C12A (the one that is shaped like a 414) , the mic didn't had service for a long time, it sounded broken, it was probably broken and in urgency need of maintenance.
Then I used the AKG C12 and The Elam 251, but just in 1 vocal session each, it was quick, so I didn't had enough time to get familiar with the mics.
I also own a new/modern AKG 414 XLII, the mic is marketed as having CK12 capsule installed, but although it sounds better than the C414 XLS model (the one with standard capsule) that I also own none of the 2 mics sound that good to me, I really don't like the sound of this newer 414 reincarnations.

Saying this I think I never got familiar and sure to what was exactly the characteristic of a CK12 capsule.

For the MK47 I know it's voicing has a Mids bump, at around 2khz to 4khz, but it doesn't have a significant bump in the sibilance region and has a smooth high end roll off.
Then the K87, has an huge bump in the sibilance region at around 10khz, that it's then attenuated with corrective EQ in an U87 and U67.

What about the CK12?
Could you guys please describe on average whats the voicing and characteristics of a CK12 capsule compared to these other 2?

Thank you so much for sharing your experience

There is this:

https://austrian.audio/the-ck12-capsule-demystified/
And this:
https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisN...=desc&sf=vn&firstdoc=0&NrFaxPages=4&pdfpage=4
Generally i found that CK12 can be very bright, even more so than k67, but the shape of HF boost is very wide Q, smooth, starts already from 1k. It can be scooped with large low end boost, which none of the other two can be.

Complex chambered design gives way different off axis and 180° response, which in combination with smooth HF boost allows it to be much brighter without being sibilant. Something about it's unique rendering of 3d space into a simple sound file makes it very unique. But at the same time difficult to quantify, or emulate.

I am also vary interested in other's responses to this question.

 

[Whoops]

Thank you so much for the links mate, very interesting information.
And thank you also for you description of the CK12 voicing.

How would you describe the low end response of the CK12 , K47 and K87 when compared one to the others?
(interested in what happens from 20hz to 200hz)

Thank you

 

[kingkorg]

If tuned that way CK12 can easily be 5-6db above both of those at 20hz. Which is why one has to be carefull with high value resistors and anode transformer coupling cap. If you have capsule like this and go for 1G resistors and 3uF cap you will quickly make that tiny transformer work in "fart" region.

 

[cortez07]

Coming soon...

Arienne Audio (?)
3U
Chinese (see above: Mr. Pan, Cameron)
Myburgh
The Russians

Exciting! Stay tuned...

The two Russians CK12 Capsule/Microphone manufacturers that I could think of were the GoodFly Microphones (GoodFlyMicrophones) which is currently using @Tim Campbell CT12 on their C12/Elam251 Clones [I don't know if they are in the same process of making their own CK12 just like MyBurgh) and Audio Construction Bureau (Audio Construction Bureau (@audioconstructionbureau) • Instagram photos and videos). Im just guessing here

attached photos are from Audio Construction Bureau SocMed Page.

 

[cortez07]

George this just isn't true. The first reported non working CK12 capsule in this forum was a Heiserman capsule against one of mine in a Chunger test. I have no idea what capsule you are referring to ,please refresh my memory. Anyone who has ever had a problem with one of my capsules and contacted me got a fully working capsule asap without cost. Every one of the manufacturers you have listed has changed unimportant aspects of their capsule over the years

From an engineering standpoint all of these capsules are historically accurate ( meaning properly chambered. many call this historically accurate ) because they have all the necessary requirements to accurately reproduce the acoustic signature of an original AKG CK12. None, and I mean none exactly match every aspect of some ideal of a CK12 capsule. Even AKG at some points screwed parts together and press fit them other years, used 3 different size retaining rings, gold plated parts, didn't goldplate parts, oxidized parts, didn't oxidize parts, used smaller chambers, used larger chambers and even called their nylon versions CK12.

When you buy my capsule you are buying a CT12, my capsule. The best chambered type capsule I can build. If you want a CK12 capsule by your definition the only option is to buy an original AKG.

The only 3 companies that have ever worked directly with AKG in bringing their own version of this capsule to market have been Haun, Telefunken and myself. Karl Peschel and Norbert Sobel of AKG helped me immensely on my capsule and gave me their blessing.

There is this guy named Markus Sauschlager who is also a Viennese; who claimed using the traditional techniques for his re-creation of AKG C12/CK12 Capsules and has the blessing and had a long conversation of the C12 maker Konrad Wolf.

https://www.fotocommunity.de/photo/austrian-made-c12-reissue-2018-markus-sauschlager/40749228https://www.fotocommunity.de/photo/patent-akg-ck12-brass-capsule-markus-sauschlager/39210855

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

Hello friends,
it's great to be able to read this thread with so many knowledgeable people from you guys.

Somehow I was never deep into the CK12, so I don't it well.

I neither have numbers nor graphs but here's my experience.

The brass CK12 is the best capsule I know and it's the reason that C12, C24 and Elam 251 are the best microphones I've heard. The worst brass I've come across still sound better than the nylon CK12.

Like kingkorg described the CK12 has a presence boost just like the classic Neumann capsules but it sounds more natural and less nasal and distorted. It's also more transparent and less boxy in the low end and C414 is my favourite bass drum microphone. In favour of the Neumanns is more energy ("bigger" sound) in the lows/mids and generally less slick impression.

Like many have stated before the CK12, just like the Neumann Berlin M7, vary quite a bit between the individual samples, even after reskin. I guess it's a combination of aging, production tolerances and changes in production methods. The originals I've heard tend to sound darker and smoother than the reskinned ones.

I have very little experience with the CK12 clones. MBHO sound great. Unhyped and balanced. The other few I've heard were bright and a bit metallic.

 

[OPR]

King Korg said:

Something about it's unique rendering of 3d space into a simple sound file makes it very unique. But at the same time difficult to quantify, or emulate.

Exactly! I'd call it high resolution. It's pretty apparent when you compare a Ck12 to a K67 or K47 type capsule. Ribbon mics with very thin ribbons also exhibit this kind of 3d detail, think of the Coles 4038 with is 0.6 micron ribbon vs other ribbon mics.
Though helpful in many aspects, frequency response measurements are only a silhouette.

 

[Whoops]

The brass CK12 is the best capsule I know and it's the reason that C12, C24 and Elam 251 are the best microphones I've heard. The worst brass I've come across still sound better than the nylon CK12.

Thank you so much for your insight and shared experience.

C414 is my favourite bass drum microphone.

The C414 is the new, present, version of the 414?
The one transformer-less with smd components?

If it's that one, as I said before I also own it and I really don't like the sound, I'm actually disappointed that I bought it.

I like the older models of 414 mics, specially the 414EB.
Advanced Audio has an amazing sounding clone of this mic

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

Thank you so much for your insight and shared experience.



The C414 is the new, present, version of the 414?
The one transformer-less with smd components?

If it's that one, as I said before I also own it and I really don't like the sound, I'm actually disappointed that I bought it.

I like the older models of 414 mics, specially the 414EB.
Advanced Audio has an amazing sounding clone of this mic

I don't own one but from what I've heard from the current C414s, they have some kind of quality (I guess I'd say tinny or metallic a bit) that reminds me of a phone or a radio a little bit.

 

[Ericbazaar]

Andreas Stenzel uses the 3U M7 in vintage Neumanns when doing repairs. Thiersch was a year wait.

I’m Andreas Stenzel and this is not true. I never replace Neumann M7 Capsules by Chinese 3u Audio in vintage Microphones. I can’t believe such stupid bullshit.

 

[Whoops]

I don't own one but from what I've heard from the current C414s, they have some kind of quality (I guess I'd say tinny or metallic a bit) that reminds me of a phone or a radio a little bit.

I can understand the “Metallic” word, I would add another word also, “Plastic”

I will sell them sooner or later,
Wanted to sell them an buy the Advanced Audio 414EB version, just didn’t do it because the C414 has a beautiful shape and body and the Advance audio mic has an ugly general Chinese looking body

I like mics that look good also besides sounding good

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

I can understand the “Metallic” word, I would add another word also, “Plastic”

I will sell them sooner or later,
Wanted to sell them an buy the Advanced Audio 414EB version, just didn’t do it because the C414 has a beautiful shape and body and the Advance audio mic has an ugly general Chinese looking body

I like mics that look good also besides sounding good

Well the Advanced Audio will have a Chinese edge terminated capsule, which will use K67 backplates. I'd recommend the CAD M179 ($200) over the Advanced Audio. The CAD will have all the patterns a C414 has. The Advanced Audio only has the patterns the C412 had (no hypercardioid). The CAD is transformerless though. I wouldn't touch an Advanced Audio mic even if they offered to sponsor me. There's nothing inherently wrong with using Chinese components, but there are some poor design choices that make me steer clear of AA (both in the selection of the donor mics and in the circuits, like not using the HF de-emphasis in U87 and U67 clones while erroneously claiming his capsule is a couple dB more neutral than Neumann's capsule when his is actually that much brighter, it's a couple dB more neutral than the brightest Chinese K67s).

I don't think either one will be a real substitute for a C414 though. They just work for a lot of the same stuff and sound similar up close, but the CK12 can have a really nice air to it without getting grainy or harsh (at least to my ears). I even like the teflon/nylon ones more than I like Neumann's stuff (at least the pre-Harman teflon capsules).

 

[Whoops]

Well the Advanced Audio will have a Chinese edge terminated capsule, which will use K67 backplates. I'd recommend the CAD M179 ($200) over the Advanced Audio. The CAD will have all the patterns a C414

The Advanced Audio CM414 I know very well, used it many times and sounds amazing. The CAD I don’t know, but I’m fine with it because the AA mic does what I want and like.

Every microphone I’ve used from Advanced Audio sounded Great, and I can only recommend their mics to everyone.

Thank you all for your help

 

[ubxf]

David Bock specified a different bass response for his capsules. MBHO capsules used in their own mics used to be built for 48v polarization and every single one of them collapsed when David first tried to use them.

Herbert Haun and me at MBHO.

Thank you so much for the heads up.
Do you happen to know if MBHO 1123 (flat) and 1134 capsules are built for 48V or can they take a little more. I'd rather not ruin them on their first go.

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

The C414 is the new, present, version of the 414?
The one transformer-less with smd components?

C414 is the first model released in 1971. The second version 414EB is just as great but the brass capsule was discontinued so the later ones have the nylon capsule and sound like a different microphone.

 

[tomas.borgstrom]

I can understand the “Metallic” word, I would add another word also, “Plastic”

I agree, the nylon CK12 sounds plastic

 

[paulcheeba]

I’m Andreas Stenzel and this is not true. I never replace Neumann M7 Capsules by Chinese 3u Audio in vintage Microphones. I can’t believe such stupid bullshit.

Apologies if 3U was the wrong brand but here is a quote from you:

 

[Ericbazaar]

Apologies if 3U was the wrong brand but here is a quote from you:

I’ve changed the Neumann M7 (thiersch reskinn) to a 3UAudio M7 for testing and measurements in my personal Neumann M49 and i was really surprised about the acoustical performance of the 3U M7. Now the M49 got its original K49 back.

I would never change the Capsules of Clients Microphones. My options are waiting for Thiersch, replace by new Neumann Capsules or replace by the excellent M7 Capsule of Rico Vetterlein (new STW7), i ask every Client!

I can publish my Measurements of M7 original, M7 reskinn and 3U M7 in original M49s, the results are close to each other. The 3U M7 has less bass response of 1,5dB in the area 40-100hz against German M7s (i don’t measure lower than 40hz)


Best
Andreas