What's the right temperature for coffee?
Entropy continued
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I use an early Keurig, Starbucks French Roast, and a grinder by Espressione. I grind only enough for 2 cups, use the adapter for DIY coffee. I use filtered water. I set the Keurig to the smallest setting, demitasse, and brew whatever that passes. I take out the adapter and whack it on it's side a few times to shake the coffee loose inside and run the Keurig on the 2nd to smallest setting to complete my cup.
I sweeten it with honey. MY choice to avoid processed white stuff and I like the flavor. No cream.
The first cup awakens my mojo, while the 2nd keeps it level all day.
Now, since saving equipment from the trash heap is a badge of honor here at DIY Central I repaired the Keurig after the house it resided in lost the ground at the pole on the 220V coming in which blew out the power transformer for the processor but didn't damage anything else. The challenge was getting it apart and back together again. And in the inconvenience department the power switch is on the back, just dumb.
Is this too plebeian for you bean connoisseurs?
I sweeten it with honey. MY choice to avoid processed white stuff and I like the flavor. No cream.
The first cup awakens my mojo, while the 2nd keeps it level all day.
Now, since saving equipment from the trash heap is a badge of honor here at DIY Central I repaired the Keurig after the house it resided in lost the ground at the pole on the 220V coming in which blew out the power transformer for the processor but didn't damage anything else. The challenge was getting it apart and back together again. And in the inconvenience department the power switch is on the back, just dumb.
Is this too plebeian for you bean connoisseurs?
I was using 195'F with my previous kettle that I just replaced... the new kettle only supported 190' and 200'. It said 190' is for oolong tea, and 200' is for french press coffee. I tried both temperatures and found 200' F better to my taste for my pour over..
Apparently the premium coffee machines tweak the brewing temperature to target that 200' ball park, but they don't all talk about it.
JR
PS: My "good old boy" plumber dropped off the brass fitting/adapter I needed to connect my new metal sink side sprayer to my faucet. He wouldn't even let me pay him for it. Now I'll see if the new improved metal side sprayer lasts longer than the cheap Chinese plastic ones that were always failing every few months.
Thanks, JR.
The highest setting my Keurig goes is 192 which is OK but would be nice to try it higher. I haven't verified the temp because there's little I could do to raise it so 192 it is. When you figure some cooling (entropy to stay on topic) when using the French press it probably drops a bit after the initial pour. I had some French press coffee at a friends house over the summer and she made it with double dose of bean. It was great. It could walk out of the cup.
How fine do you grind? I use the finest setting and actually like the sediment which stays in suspension long enough for my first cup in the AM. The 2nd cup goes longer throughout the day so it settles.
What's the side sprayer? The handheld sprayer that diverts the water from the faucet to blast the dishes?
I enjoy your posts. We're both about the same age, I would think. I don't know about you but I'm fighting some form of entropy every day. Starts when I look in the mirror.
Nope. It's all good. Abe Lincoln is touted as once commenting: "It is really good ... if you like that sort of thing."
But seriously, folks, if you like it - then it is good. I do not use coffee brewers because they are, in principle, do no more than drip boiling water on coffee grinds. But, then, we each have our own threshold for convenience and economic pain. I LIKE the fact you rescued your Keurig machine from the burial mound. I AGREE putting the on-off switch is kinda dumb. And while I do noe make mine the way you make yours, it appears you prepare a good strong cup of java and that is what counts. If you desire high caffeine, I udnerstand caffeine levels are proportional to brewing time. As for temperature, the general rule is drip coffee should be brewed between 185 and 195 degrees F, which parallels the "correct" temperature for breweilng black tea (but not white, green or some other teas, which "should" be brewed around 155-160 degrees.) "Italian Espresso" is, like other formal product appelations (like Champaigne and Bourbon and many wines) defined by Italian legal regulations, specifying pumping 192-195 degrees F water with 9 bars atmospheric pressure for approx. 25 seconds.
Regardless, as per above, if you like it your way, then do it your way! While I eschew machine drip brewers, your machine should do a good job and make a good strong cup, which is good anyway it is prepared. I am not sure bout all that honey ... perhaps a shot of bourbon would suffice ...?
"Its all good." James
Brewing temperature is probably pretty well understood by people who design coffee makers. Even the cheap coffee machines that use a heat element to boil the water and push it up the drip tube, count on that in line cooling. The thermal mass of the french press probably scrubs off a few degrees. I got into the habit of keeping my coffee in thermos containers. Before I owned temperature regulated kettles, I would pour the boiling water into my thermos and that would scrub off a couple degrees, and preheat the thermos.
Speaking of brew temperature back a couple decades ago, I noticed that my first morning pot of coffee tasted different than my second pot of coffee mid day. I finally figured out that my old Bunn was tired and it wasn't able to get up temperature as quickly as it did when new. The morning pot was at full temperature after heating in the tank all night, but pot #2 did not cut it.
Coffee making technology has made many advances since that trusty old Bunn
I don't like chewing my coffee, I always recalled coffee in Germany during trade shows having sediment in the cup .... I haven't changed my grinder adjustment in over a decade,,, its an old Baratza burr grinder. I just looked at it and it is adjusted for about 27 (whatever that means? ) in the "filter" coffee range... The "espresso" end of the range goes down finer than 10, and the coarse "press" end goes up to 40.
To avoid sediment in my cup I use a gold fine metal mesh filter, and two paper filters. My pour over rig is cobbled together from a few different brewers. The metal mesh filter sits inside one of those melita plastic cones with the first paper filter under it. They both then nest inside an old bunn brew basket... I cut the bottom out of a plastic container to sit the melita cone on so it rests flat. I have the second paper filter in the bottom of the bunn brew basket.
The order of the filters matters. If I placed the paper filter first it would clog up and take forever to drain. The metal mesh filter traps the larger grounds, so the paper filters don't get clogged quickly but still trap lots of fine sediment.
Nothing scientific about this rig, just years of trial and error.
yup... I tend to wear them out faster than normal because I keep a beer bottle washer screwed into my sink faucet for rinsing out my empty beer bottles. I use the side sprayer for all my other normal sink business. I just installed a metal side sprayer that I am hopeful will be more robust than the cheap plastic side sprayers.
The human body does pretty well for all those years of wear and tear. I have mirrors but do not really look closely.
JR
As Duke Ellington told a society lady that asked, "How do I know if your music is good?", "If it sounds good it is good.".Nope. It's all good. Abe Lincoln is touted as once commenting: "It is really good ... if you like that sort of thing."
But seriously, folks, if you like it - then it is good. I do not use coffee brewers because they are, in principle, do no more than drip boiling water on coffee grinds. But, then, we each have our own threshold for convenience and economic pain. I LIKE the fact you rescued your Keurig machine from the burial mound. I AGREE putting the on-off switch is kinda dumb. And while I do noe make mine the way you make yours, it appears you prepare a good strong cup of java and that is what counts. If you desire high caffeine, I udnerstand caffeine levels are proportional to brewing time. As for temperature, the general rule is drip coffee should be brewed between 185 and 195 degrees F, which parallels the "correct" temperature for breweilng black tea (but not white, green or some other teas, which "should" be brewed around 155-160 degrees.) "Italian Espresso" is, like other formal product appelations (like Champaigne and Bourbon and many wines) defined by Italian legal regulations, specifying pumping 192-195 degrees F water with 9 bars atmospheric pressure for approx. 25 seconds.
Regardless, as per above, if you like it your way, then do it your way! While I eschew machine drip brewers, your machine should do a good job and make a good strong cup, which is good anyway it is prepared. I am not sure bout all that honey ... perhaps a shot of bourbon would suffice ...?
"Its all good." James
It could be a lot worse, but so far manageable.
Wear and tear shows up the design flaws. Intelligent design? Maybe, but more thought is required.
GK
Coffee is seemingly simple. Temperature of the water decides taste. Time decides caffeine content.
And taste is defined by the amount of oil that separates from the beans. Hence, temp sensitivity.
So, contrary to common belief, the espresso isn't high on caffeine levels, but high on oil content. It's also the oil that makes coffee more or less unhealthy.
All in all, the old-fashioned paper filter is a fairly good method to brew some coffee as the paper filter absorbs some parts of the oil. Personally, I use a French coffee maker, mainly because it's the least hassle.
And taste is defined by the amount of oil that separates from the beans. Hence, temp sensitivity.
So, contrary to common belief, the espresso isn't high on caffeine levels, but high on oil content. It's also the oil that makes coffee more or less unhealthy.
All in all, the old-fashioned paper filter is a fairly good method to brew some coffee as the paper filter absorbs some parts of the oil. Personally, I use a French coffee maker, mainly because it's the least hassle.
YES - well said. Timing IS the essence of good comedy - and also good coffee!
Whenever I use a French Press, a Turkish Cezve, Ibrik, moke pot, or Vietnamese pot - I usually filter the product through a paper filter held by a simple Melita pour over funnel. I guess I am with JR on this ... I don't want to chew it!
Most days, I use a Melita pour over funnel with an unbleached paper filter. After all, as Mr. Cyrano suggests, most methods for making coffee involve some way of soaking ground up coffee beans in hot, nearly boiling water for some period of time. Keurig(R) machines, Mr. Coffee drip machines, moka pots, percolators, etc. all drip hot water on ground coffee. A French press, Ibrik, Ceves, turkish pot, Vietnamese pot, and etc., soaks the coffee in hot water instead of running the water over or past the grounds. It does not matter how you do it - IT ALL BOILS DOWN to soaking it in hot water for some period of time. (sorry, but I can rarely resist a bad pun...)
Just My take. Your mileage may vary. James
Oh yeah ... I forgot to keep it on topic -
Yesterday's entropic DIY debacle involved cleaning my Baratza coffee grinder. All this talk about coffee jinxed the task. I easily dismantled the burr assembly, but had a terrible time reassembling it. I had to step aside awhile and finish later, when it finally got the click.
But, the worst bit was ... I had to clean it because I did a dumb thing. I foolishly purchased pre-ground Dallmyer espresso - notwithstanding I know pre-ground coffee rarely works well with my Gaggia espresso machine. Still, I wanted to try it. Knowing it is a recipe for problems, my wife (who does not drinik coffee) egged me on to RE-GRIND it finer - which did not work well and clogged the burr assembly - even though I did this once before with good results. Yeah, Yeah, I know better, but I wanted to try it anyway. My bad. A self-inflicted wound hurst the most !!
Please don't Tell Mr. Tubetec ... his machine works OK with pre-ground coffee and knows better than to re-grind
ground beans ...
Anonymous ... (too embarrassed to sign this missive...)
Yesterday's entropic DIY debacle involved cleaning my Baratza coffee grinder. All this talk about coffee jinxed the task. I easily dismantled the burr assembly, but had a terrible time reassembling it. I had to step aside awhile and finish later, when it finally got the click.
But, the worst bit was ... I had to clean it because I did a dumb thing. I foolishly purchased pre-ground Dallmyer espresso - notwithstanding I know pre-ground coffee rarely works well with my Gaggia espresso machine. Still, I wanted to try it. Knowing it is a recipe for problems, my wife (who does not drinik coffee) egged me on to RE-GRIND it finer - which did not work well and clogged the burr assembly - even though I did this once before with good results. Yeah, Yeah, I know better, but I wanted to try it anyway. My bad. A self-inflicted wound hurst the most !!
Please don't Tell Mr. Tubetec ... his machine works OK with pre-ground coffee and knows better than to re-grind
ground beans ...
Anonymous ... (too embarrassed to sign this missive...)
I've given up on machines for coffee. Beer is easier. Just open a bottle.
A US friend calls the hotel he's gonna stay at, to hear if he as access to the freezers. To store his beans. He travels with a mini-grinder, a weter kettle and a coffee can. No way he'll drink anything but his own brew in the morning. His brain doesn't function at 100% if he doesn't keep to that rule. I've seen it happen. He's one of the smarter people, but they all seem to have some routine to avoid running wild...
A US friend calls the hotel he's gonna stay at, to hear if he as access to the freezers. To store his beans. He travels with a mini-grinder, a weter kettle and a coffee can. No way he'll drink anything but his own brew in the morning. His brain doesn't function at 100% if he doesn't keep to that rule. I've seen it happen. He's one of the smarter people, but they all seem to have some routine to avoid running wild...
there is a little more to it than that.... and the input raw material matters a bunch. Coffee grind, time , and temperature all affect extraction (of caffeine).
That is a new concept I am not aware of.
There is a significant relationship between coffee bean "roast time" and oil release. Dark over-roasted beans can visibly look shiny from all the oil on the bean surface. The flavor of dark roasted coffee is about more than just oil.
Another new concept.... coffee has alternately been declared healthy and unhealthy every several years, I try to ignore these pronouncements because they are never controlled for the way too many variables associated with coffee.
The french press soaking the grounds in hot water generally extracts more than just dripping water through the grounds. French press grinds are coarser than filter grinds to prevent over extraction.
The oils in coffee can oxidize if over heated, that is why coffee pots left on the heaters for hours can taste so nasty.
JR
PS: Speaking about beer, I brew beer too.
I use strategies I learned from coffee brewing in my beer making. I like dark beers so use ground roasted barley and chocolate malts in my brews. The process for incorporating these roasted malts is similar to french press, where the ground malt is mixed into the wort in a big pot. Two changes I made are #1 I buy the roasted malts whole, and grind them myself just before I introduce them into the wort. #2 I don't put the ground malt in while the wort is still boiling, I remove the wort from the heat and and let the grounds extract over night. Just like you can burn coffee leaving it on the heat, you can over heat the roasted malts in beer brewing.Caffeine is pure bitterness, so it affects taste too. In general, I'm not looking to get coffee even more bitter. Don't know about others. Maybe some like extreme bitterness?
But all the other taste and the aroma come mostly from the oil. Like in most food, really. Of course, if you search for it, you can find exceptions to the rule. There are a lot of other chemicals in coffee that are water soluble too, but I've been told these make less of a difference to the taste. The "color" otoh, depends on water soluble stuff.
I don't brew. In the surrounding villages, there are at least dozens of amateur brewers. A few went semi-pro in the last few years. There are about a dozen of smaller professionals too. Can't compete with any of them. They've been doing it for decades, some for generations. There's always something new, every time I visit one of the beer pubs.
I'm the cook for brewers, hunters, farmers, sailors and everyone else who needs someone capable of preparing a decent meal in any environment and with any ingredients. Drinks aren't my worry...
I guess if I wasn't living where I am, I might be a wine drinker...
But all the other taste and the aroma come mostly from the oil. Like in most food, really. Of course, if you search for it, you can find exceptions to the rule. There are a lot of other chemicals in coffee that are water soluble too, but I've been told these make less of a difference to the taste. The "color" otoh, depends on water soluble stuff.
I don't brew. In the surrounding villages, there are at least dozens of amateur brewers. A few went semi-pro in the last few years. There are about a dozen of smaller professionals too. Can't compete with any of them. They've been doing it for decades, some for generations. There's always something new, every time I visit one of the beer pubs.
I'm the cook for brewers, hunters, farmers, sailors and everyone else who needs someone capable of preparing a decent meal in any environment and with any ingredients. Drinks aren't my worry...
I guess if I wasn't living where I am, I might be a wine drinker...
So is coffee a solution or suspension or both? Fine particles in the coffee are in suspension and will settle out. What gives coffee it's color that doesn't settle out? Oils would float, I would think.
Why do I like Starbucks French Roast (which I get on sale at Costco)? I don't really know what the adjectives used to describe coffee in ads mean? Rich, dark? I would use those 2 to describe what I drink for lack of a more precise descriptor.
Why do I like Starbucks French Roast (which I get on sale at Costco)? I don't really know what the adjectives used to describe coffee in ads mean? Rich, dark? I would use those 2 to describe what I drink for lack of a more precise descriptor.
We have many words for colors. And few words for taste...
Just five: bitter, sweet, acidic or sour, salty and umami. All the rest is meaningless and we resort to things like "tastes like chicken". With modern industrial chicken, it reads like "tasteless".
Just five: bitter, sweet, acidic or sour, salty and umami. All the rest is meaningless and we resort to things like "tastes like chicken". With modern industrial chicken, it reads like "tasteless".
Over extraction causes bitterness from too much caffeine. Again that is why course grinds are preferred for French press, and leaving the grounds in the French press too long can likewise over extract caffeine .
Years ago I joined a coffee brewers forum and much like here it was very time consuming and full of odd characters (i was one). I left because it was not a good use of my time.
I have a theory about psychoactive chemicals like caffeine and alcohol. Many people just tolerate the bitterness of coffee, and attempt to neutalize it with sugar and cream, just to get the caffeine jolt. Likewise some people tolerate crap tasting beer for the buzz. Fruity mixed drinks are the equivalent of adding cream and sugar to coffee. If done properly black coffee tastes just fine, and home brew beer can be superior. Not unlike liquid home made bread.
JR
But all the other taste and the aroma come mostly from the oil. Like in most food, really. Of course, if you search for it, you can find exceptions to the rule. There are a lot of other chemicals in coffee that are water soluble too, but I've been told these make less of a difference to the taste. The "color" otoh, depends on water soluble stuff.
I don't brew. In the surrounding villages, there are at least dozens of amateur brewers. A few went semi-pro in the last few years. There are about a dozen of smaller professionals too. Can't compete with any of them. They've been doing it for decades, some for generations. There's always something new, every time I visit one of the beer pubs.
I'm the cook for brewers, hunters, farmers, sailors and everyone else who needs someone capable of preparing a decent meal in any environment and with any ingredients. Drinks aren't my worry...
I guess if I wasn't living where I am, I might be a wine drinker...
Starbucks is pejoratively called "starburnt" by coffee aficionados because they over (dark) roast most of their bean blends. French Roast is done this way on purpose. Dark roasting burns off the volatile flavor notes that can cause taste difference between different cultivars or origins. Sturburnt's success comes from delivering a consistent product.
sweetmarias said:
#13 is french roast..... 14-16 are charcoal.....
I typically roast to #10 city+ roast
JR
Last edited:
Disco Volante
Well-known member
I have a almost-unplugged setup: A very good manual grinder (Comandante) and a couple of sizes of old restored Bialletti stainless stovetop models. The older ones are way better made, and can be found with defective gaskets or burnt handles, ready for a refurb, often for free.
The Comandante is one of very few manual grinders that can make the full spectrum (french to turkish) with good precision and a reasonable effort.
With the Bialettis, it's imperative to not overheat the can. On my stove, it's half power on the smallest burner. The pressure and temperature is controlled by the power under it, the grind and how much you pack in there. I usually do a couple of test shots when trying a new bean.
I find this setup super for a somewhat portable lifestyle, it takes up very little space in a small kitchen and makes great coffee on the boat or in the summerhouse or in the back woods...
Cheers!
V!
PS filtered water is the best.
The Comandante is one of very few manual grinders that can make the full spectrum (french to turkish) with good precision and a reasonable effort.
With the Bialettis, it's imperative to not overheat the can. On my stove, it's half power on the smallest burner. The pressure and temperature is controlled by the power under it, the grind and how much you pack in there. I usually do a couple of test shots when trying a new bean.
I find this setup super for a somewhat portable lifestyle, it takes up very little space in a small kitchen and makes great coffee on the boat or in the summerhouse or in the back woods...
Cheers!
V!
PS filtered water is the best.
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