Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone

[Khron]

It happen so that I measured and analysed the C800G transformer a while ago. So, let's say it's doable to make the exact replica of it.

Is it anything special in some way?

 

[Moby]

Is it anything special in some way?

I don't have the blueprint with me but from my memory it's EI permalloy core, winded clever enaugh. Nothing special but the nice designed transformer.

 

[paulcheeba]

Stam are very close.

 

[kingkorg]

Stam are very close.

Very close, yet so far. They missed couple of crucial steps. Capsule to begin with. But i'm not sharing the rest, not helping them for free.

One thing that comes to mind is, how come they are so careful not to infringe u87 rights by redesigning their sa87 headbasket, but blatantly rip-off Sony for a mic that is still in production.

 

[soliloqueen]

Very close, yet so far. They missed couple of crucial steps. Capsule to begin with. But i'm not sharing the rest, not helping them for free.

One thing that comes to mind is, how come they are so careful not to infringe u87 rights by redesigning their sa87 headbasket, but blatantly rip-off Sony for a mic that is still in production.

stam redesigned theirs? i thought that was warm. Stam is immune because Neumann's design copyright is unenforcable in their country IIRC? might be wrong

 

[Gus]

If what I read is true Neumann has a trademark on the grill shape. Trademarks are different than a design patent.

I don't think you can trademark a tube with mesh.

The other funny to me thing about C800G clones is why don't the cloners improve the C800G

 

[kingkorg]

stam redesigned theirs? i thought that was warm. Stam is immune because Neumann's design copyright is unenforcable in their country IIRC? might be wrong

Yup, i mix up Stam and Warm all the time... I don't think it maters, Sony is still in production, and Sa800 can be bought all over the world, so how is it legal to import and distribute something like this in EU or US? Doesn't hurt economy of either of the two, so if it's Japanese product infringement it's ok?

 

[soliloqueen]

Yup, i mix up Stam and Warm all the time... I don't think it maters, Sony is still in production, and Sa800 can be bought all over the world, so how is it legal to import and distribute something like this in EU or US? Doesn't hurt economy of either of the two, so if it's Japanese product infringement it's ok?

if it's not patented, it's fair game. that's just how the system works. otherwise, companies would have a huge amount of power to fix prices. granted, the patent system as it exists in most countries isn't designed to account for products that are variations on a theme. it works on a strict axis of whether a design is an "improvement" so there aren't protections on things like this. whether there should be is ethically complicated. any law that could protect sony here could also make it possible for someone to arbitrarily restrict access to something lifesaving or stagnate the market for new inventions or improvements on previous designs even more easily than they already can.

 

[cortez07]

just saw this.. https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/1404935-another-sony-c800g-thread.html

 

[rock soderstrom]

The other funny to me thing about C800G clones is why don't the cloners improve the C800G

That's really funny. It shows very well what this is really about. Primarily fetishism, less about a good microphone.

just saw this..

Thanks for the link, nice photos and some info. What surprises me is that the external C800g PSU is not worth a single word to the author.

I like the 0.22F caps in the heater voltage supply, too.

 

[k brown]

Hey - keep your hands off my fetishism . . .

 

[Ricardus]

Just build a good mic from one of the solutions Dany offers and call it a day. This mic isn't going to propel any of us into the big time if we use it to track vox on a song.

 

[AUDIO FREQ]

Yup, i mix up Stam and Warm all the time... I don't think it maters, Sony is still in production, and Sa800 can be bought all over the world, so how is it legal to import and distribute something like this in EU or US? Doesn't hurt economy of either of the two, so if it's Japanese product infringement it's ok?

Interesting....well, apart from the two companies you mentioned. I see clones are all over the market. Not just for the 800, but U87m 67, 47, 251, La2a, SSL Bus comp, 1176, LA3A...heck there are even companies out there selling "hackintosh" computers. Is it legal? Maybe...maybe not. Is it ethically wrong? maybe....maybe not. But I kind of find it hypocritical to criticize companies of using original designs, when we're in a group sharing schematics that are clearly not to be shared to the public, and information detailing other peoples original designs. Just my humble opinion. Im grateful to learn from all of you here, but this sort of virtue signal and pearl clutching seems counter productive to the progression of discussion.

 

[vintagelove]

AFAIK it’s just a high-quality K67 copy. Someone posted a while back about replacing the capsule in an original C800G with a Neumann K67 and having basically identical sound

Nope, it isn't actually even close. Soliloqueen's exploration of some images revealed quite different hole dimensions. Going just by measurements i haven't been able to nail the graph 100% using existing capsules. Some are closer than others, but original k67 is far from the expected curve. Fox audio came to the same conclusion.

The capsules are somewhat different sounding.

Just today I was going back and forth between the 800g and an 87 with the innertube, tube 87 mod (so basically a 67 capsule with little to no roll off in the amplifier).

They are similar, but the Neumann has that signature midrange bite/cut/authority, while the Sony has a bit less from 800 to 2k give or take, and more going on from 9k up.

I would expect the Neumann capsule in the Sony to sound noticeably different.

I'll try to post a comparison shortly. Long story short, both are a polished sound and really jump right to the front of the mix. For belters, the Sony could soften their (potentially harsh) midrange, while the Neumann has that classic bite that brings interest and intimacy to a dull'ish voice.

 

[kingkorg]

The capsules are somewhat different sounding.

Just today I was going back and forth between the 800g and an 87 with the innertube, tube 87 mod (so basically a 67 capsule with little to no roll off in the amplifier).

They are similar, but the Neumann has that signature midrange bite/cut/authority, while the Sony has a bit less from 800 to 2k give or take, and more going on from 9k up.

I would expect the Neumann capsule in the Sony to sound noticeably different.

I'll try to post a comparison shortly. Long story short, both are a polished sound and really jump right to the front of the mix. For belters, the Sony could soften their (potentially harsh) midrange, while the Neumann has that classic bite that brings interest and intimacy to a dull'ish voice.

If you get to make an audio sample, try to record samples of both capsules at same exact position using pink noise as audio source. We can then use some software to easily see the difference.

 

[kingkorg]

Interesting....well, apart from the two companies you mentioned. I see clones are all over the market. Not just for the 800, but U87m 67, 47, 251, La2a, SSL Bus comp, 1176, LA3A...heck there are even companies out there selling "hackintosh" computers. Is it legal? Maybe...maybe not. Is it ethically wrong? maybe....maybe not. But I kind of find it hypocritical to criticize companies of using original designs, when we're in a group sharing schematics that are clearly not to be shared to the public, and information detailing other peoples original designs. Just my humble opinion. Im grateful to learn from all of you here, but this sort of virtue signal and pearl clutching seems counter productive to the progression of discussion.

Sure, get what you mean. I am guilty of making some lookalikes myself. However the difference in my eyes is we here make some small quantities for personal use. This is serious multi-national business. If they only made the effort to copy the stuff that really counts, instead they focus on esthetics... they fail with key elements.

Soliloqueen made a good point about patents, but even if patent is expired or not even applied for, how moral is to rip-off something to that extent?

There is a big controversy about "Chibsons" in guitar world. But everyone focus on how the guitars are branded, if it says Gibson on a headstock or not. To me personally that is crazy. Yes there is a chance you could buy a fake Gibson, but if you can't tell a fake from real product by the sound or other parameters i really don't know what to say... On the other hand you have gazillion guitars from reputable manufacturers who nailed every aspect of the design, but changed shape of the pickguard. It's just a mess.

There is a pattern though. I worked for Korg so i kinda have some inside info. If european, us, uk... product gets ripped off whole hell breaks lose. If it happens with chinese, japanese, brazilian, african (you get the point), as long as local eu, us, uk laws are not violated, or legal loopholes are exploited it is suddenly ok.

It happens locally as well, i mentioned recently UA ripping off Shure sm7b by re-branding a 50$ chinese mic.

 

[vintagelove]

If you get to make an audio sample, try to record samples of both capsules at same exact position using pink noise as audio source. We can then use some software to easily see the difference.

I'll do that.

I was trying to do a vocal with both mics as close together as possible, but because of the shockmounts and stands, they were a bit apart, and you never know if you're leaning a toward one mic or the other...

Anyway, I'll do the pink noise as that will be easier to position correctly.


Fwiw, the vocal I did, I put through the analyzer (just the one in logic so far) and was actually surprised how close they matched, while sounding as different as they did. There was only a couple places in the spectrum that had any difference. Perhaps a better detailed analyzer with the pink noise will reveal some more.

 

[AUDIO FREQ]

Sure, get what you mean. I am guilty of making some lookalikes myself. However the difference in my eyes is we here make some small quantities for personal use. This is serious multi-national business. If they only made the effort to copy the stuff that really counts, instead they focus on esthetics... instead they fail with key elements.

Soliloqueen made a good point about patents, but even if patent is expired or not even applied for, how moral is to rip-off something to that extent?

There is a big controversy about "Chibsons" in guitar world. But everyone focus on how the guitars are branded, if it says Gibson on a headstock or not. To me personally that is crazy. Yes there is a chance you could buy a fake Gibson, but if you can't tell a fake from real product by the sound or other parameters i really don't know what to say... On the other hand you have gazillion guitars from reputable manufacturers who nailed every aspect of the design, but changed shape of the pickguard. It's just a mess.

There is a pattern though. I worked for Korg so i kinda have some inside info. If european, us, uk... product gets ripped off whole hell breaks lose. If it happens with chinese, japanese, brazilian, african (you get the point), as long as local eu, us, uk laws are not violated, or legal loopholes are exploited it is suddenly ok.

It happens locally as well, i mentioned recently UA ripping off Shure sm7b by re-branding a 50$ chinese mic.

I understand. This is a tough discussion, because it's easy to see both sides of the coin. It's a challenging line to draw between right and wrong, if using other's ideas...how much? When do we say it's unethical? On one side, it's like...copying is wrong. But on the otherside, it's like....copying has helped things advance. I feel like ideas are meant to be shared. That's only my opinion. I can see the otherside of that opinion as well. But it's not only electronics that things are imitated, but music, art, film, writing, dancing, food, language, clothes...

Even if its smaller quantities, it's an injustice in the fact that you could've just paid the money to the original maker and bought it for yourself. 1 mic or 100 mics...the act of taking is taking. Do reasons matter when the result is evident? Im not enlightened enough to answer that, but it's an interesting question.

Anywho, I wrote a post in gearspace about the C800 and the clones available. None of the clones use the C800 capsule....and it seems like they just took the internets word for it that it's just a K67 copy...

And then further inspection of the insides, they all seem to take creative liberties in making design changes...from different transformers, tubes, and electronics. Can we really call them a clone? Aside from having a similar shape and color...they aren't really clones in my opinion....not even close.

To me, the false marketing and advertisement is more of an injustice to the unknowing customer who thinks he's got a C800 for a thousand bucks...not knowing any better and suffering from buyers bias. I just wanted to maybe shed some light to people who don't know better.

 

[Gus]

Patents expire Trademarks can go on a long time

Guitars have headstocks trademarked

 

[soliloqueen]

Sure, get what you mean. I am guilty of making some lookalikes myself. However the difference in my eyes is we here make some small quantities for personal use. This is serious multi-national business. If they only made the effort to copy the stuff that really counts, instead they focus on esthetics... they fail with key elements.

Soliloqueen made a good point about patents, but even if patent is expired or not even applied for, how moral is to rip-off something to that extent?

There is a big controversy about "Chibsons" in guitar world. But everyone focus on how the guitars are branded, if it says Gibson on a headstock or not. To me personally that is crazy. Yes there is a chance you could buy a fake Gibson, but if you can't tell a fake from real product by the sound or other parameters i really don't know what to say... On the other hand you have gazillion guitars from reputable manufacturers who nailed every aspect of the design, but changed shape of the pickguard. It's just a mess.

There is a pattern though. I worked for Korg so i kinda have some inside info. If european, us, uk... product gets ripped off whole hell breaks lose. If it happens with chinese, japanese, brazilian, african (you get the point), as long as local eu, us, uk laws are not violated, or legal loopholes are exploited it is suddenly ok.

It happens locally as well, i mentioned recently UA ripping off Shure sm7b by re-branding a 50$ chinese mic.

This is generally because those companies don't spend the money to file for protections on their designs under the US or EU legal systems. There are mechanisms in place for them to prevent this, they just don't know them because they're not from here.