Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone

[Recording Engineer]

But that won't be for technical reasons. .. Just Veblen - or 'fairy dust' - ones.

I think you may be overlooking a plethora of cold, hard, non-technical reasons and instead just rolling it all into fairy-dust reasons. While I follow and agree with the sentiment, for me, it’s taking a known truth and running with it to fit a narrative. I just don’t find it nearly as simple as presented.

 

[rogs]

I think you may be overlooking a plethora of cold, hard, non-technical reasons and instead just rolling it all into fairy-dust reasons. While I follow and agree with the sentiment, for me, it’s taking a known truth and running with it to fit a narrative. I just don’t find it nearly as simple as presented.

I feel I do perhaps need to reiterate that my comments are my own opinions.... Like Banzai you are - of course - entitled to yours.

The concept of 'cold, hard, non-technical reasons' is - I feel - a  bit of an oxymoron.
It is only 'cold, hard, technical reasons' that I am using to make my observations.
I'm very much in the camp of science based observations, rather than in the camp of subjective interpretations, which is what drives much of the 'mystique' about expensive microphones.

Of course, there are all sorts of 'non technical' reasons to support a particular view .... little non-linear 'quirks' in specific circuitry or mechanical design which translate as 'positive' features, for example.

My point is that when faced with a simple, direct, no tricks, comparison that produces very little difference in actual results, there seems to be a requirement for all sorts of - largely subjective - claims to be made by folk inclined to try and justify some of these silly prices.

I have called it 'fairy dust' because - to me - that best describes a lot of the subjective (non scientific) reasons given to try and justify the (sometimes very) expensive prices for certain microphones.

I reiterate -- these are my own views, with which others will - no doubt - disagree...

 

[Banzai]

Rogs, only reason you'd even consider NT1 = U47 is because you've never done the comparison yourself. Don't you see the problem in saying people are dupes, whilst yourself being duped by a paid advertisement?

Someone sensible would also know the position of thinking other people are deaf and stupid isn't tenable. Simple example: that desk will make anything sound good. Literally anything. That's why people pay $80K for the pleasure. They're not duped into buying something super expensive that still makes $200 mics sound like $200. Nor does the price tag of the desk muffle their ears and compel them to defend Neve's honour on forums.

Vast majority of Rode NT1 owners though, use generic digital pre-amps on generic cheap converters. So what's the point of the video?

(seriously, not at all interested in debating NT1 = U47. It's silly and not worth anyone's time. I'm only here for the $80,200 NT1 vocal chain  ;D )

I think you've slightly missed the point on the concept of 'Veblen goods'.  The higher the price, the bigger the market grows. Investing in a Neumann U47 - or several other specific types of overpriced microphones - may well be a good investment. But that won't be for technical reasons. .. Just Veblen - or 'fairy dust' - ones.

You're not thinking this through. Pro audio market is a niche market. Boutique audio is a niche market inside a niche market. Vintage audio gear is a niche market inside the niche market of a niche market. DIY is a niche market inside of a niche market inside the niche market of another niche market. The higher you go, the rarer everything becomes. There is no endless supply of people with $20K to spend on a vintage mic or with the patience to learn how to DIY their own U87.

But there is a neverending supply of smart young cool beautiful people with small budgets willing to spend $200 on an NT1, even as an impulse buy. Rode maybe sells 10 or 20K NT1's a month. Popular boutique mics sell maybe 100 to 200 units a year, if they're lucky... And does it even matter if the NT1 is good? Most people who buy it probably don't care. They just want to record something and have fun with a new hobby. Pretending it's some super pro tool defeats the purpose it was created for, to be mass producable, cheap, and easily available.

I have called it 'fairy dust' because - to me - that best describes a lot of the subjective (non scientific) reasons given to try and justify the (sometimes very) expensive prices for certain microphones.

Nothing subjective about actual reasons behind high prices. Just simple economics. If you still believe people work for free, a good start is to account for how unrealistic that is. When a $5K microphone sells, it's not the manufacturer making the most profit.

 

[rogs]

Banzai - Thank you for your perspective on this subject.

Not entirely unexpected, but still most interesting...

I shall let other folk decide for themselves which one of us they believe is being 'duped', as you call it.

 

[kingkorg]

A half of Adele's Skyfall vocal (James Bond) was recorded with Røde classic 2 which is basically Nt1 on steroids, the other part with an 49. Different spaces, different preamps.

Never heard anyone complaining about Røde there.

 

[Recording Engineer]

It is only 'cold, hard, technical reasons' that I am using to make my observations.
I'm very much in the camp of science based observations, rather than in the camp of subjective interpretations, which is what drives much of the 'mystique' about expensive microphones.

Of course, there are all sorts of 'non technical' reasons to support a particular view .... little non-linear 'quirks' in specific circuitry or mechanical design which translate as 'positive' features, for example.

Here is exactly why I feel you’re stopping short. You’re only looking at technical reasons and calling all other non-technical reasons ‘views’. There’s no ‘view’ in a lot of what you’re rolling into fairy-dust. There is still much of concrete facts that must be considered before adding-in the fairy-dust.

 

[rogs]

Here is exactly why I feel you’re stopping short. You’re only looking at technical reasons and calling all other non-technical reasons ‘views’. There’s no ‘view’ in a lot of what you’re rolling into fairy-dust. There is still much of concrete facts that must be considered before adding-in the fairy-dust.

I think we may need to agree to disagree on this! 
To me any non-technical reason to 'hike up' a price is just 'fairy dust'..... You clearly don't agree, and I can't see either of us being persuaded to embrace the other's view on this....
I'm sure there will be some folk quite prepared to pay Thomann £8099 +20% tax  for a new Telefunken U47,  here in the UK.....
I won't be one of them.

As I said in my reply to Banzai's comments, I'm going to leave it others to make their own minds up on who's view prevails on this one!
 

 

[Recording Engineer]

I think we may need to agree to disagree on this! 
To me any non-technical reason to 'hike up' a price is just 'fairy dust'..... You clearly don't agree, and I can't see either of us being persuaded to embrace the other's view on this....

I just don’t see how obvious and real cash expenses can be rolled into the fairy-dust category, but sure let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Banzai]

I'm sure there will be some folk quite prepared to pay Thomann £8099 +20% tax  for a new Telefunken U47,  here in the UK.....

Foreign good, in stock at your friendly local audio store, ready for click-and-buy next day delivery.

Shops never charge their clients for the service, but somehow they stay in business.

Must be magic 

 

[LuckyNat]

As an aside to this thread and to resurrect it slightly, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a DIY C800G clone I've seen - please let me know if there has - given that the same capsule was used on the C48. Given the going price for C800Gs, I'd have thought a project similar to the one turning a U87 into a U67 would have cropped up ... maybe the transformer is a stumbling block?

 

[kingkorg]

As an aside to this thread and to resurrect it slightly, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a DIY C800G clone I've seen - please let me know if there has - given that the same capsule was used on the C48. Given the going price for C800Gs, I'd have thought a project similar to the one turning a U87 into a U67 would have cropped up ... maybe the transformer is a stumbling block?

I have made one. Stumbling block are both transformer and the capsule.

 

[soliloqueen]

i would love to take a c800g capsule apart, i'm sure i could nail it

 

[kingkorg]

i would love to take a c800g capsule apart, i'm sure i could nail it

I'd love that too. For now i went just by chasing the final FR.

 

[Barry Hufker]

Here's an interesting article about making a Sony C800G clone... The Model 800 Tube Microphone

 

[Gus]

Here's an interesting article about making a Sony C800G clone... The Model 800 Tube Microphone

There are things I don't agree with in that article.

For some of the other posts look around this forum for information on the 800G

There are some "copies?" sold, look at post 15

I don't think the copiers understand the microphone.

 

[Barry Hufker]

Thanks Gus. I'll take a look.

 

[wlinart]

i would love to take a c800g capsule apart, i'm sure i could nail it

It should be still available: A-8262-982-A Sony Capsule Assy

 

[Dylan W]

i would love to take a c800g capsule apart, i'm sure i could nail it

AFAIK it’s just a high-quality K67 copy. Someone posted a while back about replacing the capsule in an original C800G with a Neumann K67 and having basically identical sound

 

[kingkorg]

AFAIK it’s just a high-quality K67 copy. Someone posted a while back about replacing the capsule in an original C800G with a Neumann K67 and having basically identical sound

Nope, it isn't actually even close. Soliloqueen's exploration of some images revealed quite different hole dimensions. Going just by measurements i haven't been able to nail the graph 100% using existing capsules. Some are closer than others, but original k67 is far from the expected curve. Fox audio came to the same conclusion.

 

[Moby]

I have made one. Stumbling block are both transformer and the capsule.

It happen so that I measured and analysed the C800G transformer a while ago. So, let's say it's doable to make the exact replica of it.